Transport planes should get some modifications?

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Crecer13

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I am not at the game, so thanks for pointing that out. Range is such a hit or miss thing in the game. Dropping troops that far behind enemy lines would be ridiculous in real life WW2, but in the game we need long range just so we can have full efficiency in some of the the air zones next door.
Well, not so unrealistic.

Ju 252 had a practical range of 2,500 km
C-47 had a practical range of 2,500 km
Li-2 had a practical range of 2,500 km
C-87 had a practical range of 3,000 km
Avro York had a practical range of 4,800 km (used for long-distance transport operations to Africa and the Far East)
C-46 had a practical range of 5,000 km

Well, and many other heavy transport aircraft like the USSR projects of transport aircraft based on strategic bombers: Pe-8 transport (cancelled due to the war), Tu-64 (1944, also originally designed as a bomber and transport aircraft, canceled due to Tu- 4), Tu-4 which was designed as a bomber and transport aircraft (Tu-4T)

1,000 is the range of the level of a light aircraft, the above-mentioned Shche-2 and Yak-6 aircraft had a flight range with a load of 850 and 900 km, respectively.
 
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Anaraxes

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C-47 had a practical range of 2,500 km
Range is usually specified as a one-way distance. In HoI4, you're more concerned with the combat radius -- that is, you want the airplane to be able to fly back to base after it airdrops supplies or paratroops, not just crash out there with no runway as the fuel tanks run dry. (Strictly speaking, you should also subtract a reserve and, especially for fighters, the time you spend in combat rather than making progress to some destination.) The quick and dirty answer is to cut cited range figures in half to get the radius for the HoI4 circle around an airbase.

There's also some known wonkiness where that combat radius circle doesn't take the map projection into account, so latitude makes a big difference in how far the aircraft can effectively fly.
 
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vermicious knid

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I really wish they'd spell out the edge cases they were worried about. There might very well be easy solutions to the problems that just didn't occur to them.

...and I'd like to see the fact that various planes were often pressed into service as transports represented in some way. Various flying boats and bombers had this capacity.

And since someone brought it up, I still want armored cars and mech added to the tank designer. The fact that we have evidence this was worked on and then abandoned irritates me. Wouldn't be a problem if it was easy to mod this in...but it looks like that is impossible to do cleanly.
 

Lamartine

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I really wish they'd spell out the edge cases they were worried about. There might very well be easy solutions to the problems that just didn't occur to them.

...and I'd like to see the fact that various planes were often pressed into service as transports represented in some way. Various flying boats and bombers had this capacity.

And since someone brought it up, I still want armored cars and mech added to the tank designer. The fact that we have evidence this was worked on and then abandoned irritates me. Wouldn't be a problem if it was easy to mod this in...but it looks like that is impossible to do cleanly.
Arheo has said they'd like to take another pass at including Armoured Cars in the designer.

Transport planes it would be nice to know what the edge cases are
 
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Crecer13

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Range is usually specified as a one-way distance. In HoI4, you're more concerned with the combat radius -- that is, you want the airplane to be able to fly back to base after it airdrops supplies or paratroops, not just crash out there with no runway as the fuel tanks run dry. (Strictly speaking, you should also subtract a reserve and, especially for fighters, the time you spend in combat rather than making progress to some destination.) The quick and dirty answer is to cut cited range figures in half to get the radius for the HoI4 circle around an airbase.

There's also some known wonkiness where that combat radius circle doesn't take the map projection into account, so latitude makes a big difference in how far the aircraft can effectively fly.
Then let's remember the C-54 "Skymaster" with a combat radius of 4,023 kilometers. Or CB-17G transport version of the Flying Fortress

Due to its geographic location, the United States needed transport aircraft with a large radius. But in the USSR they also wanted a transport aircraft with a large radius: the Pe-8 transport modification was supposed to transport 50 paratroopers at a distance of 2,000 kilometers and return back. The Tu-64 (1944, Tu-10, aircraft 64) was supposed to transport either 70 paratroopers or a T-60 light tank or truck over a long range (the bomb version with a 5 ton load is a tactical range of 2,000 kilometers). And finally, it was possible to realize this only after the war in the Tu-4TD, which could carry 51 paratroopers. At an impressive distance, you yourself understand this how to make the transport line of the Super Fortress.
 
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mursolini

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I'd assume their issue was the fact that paratroopers were already mostly a niche exploit, and air supply was never really viable for the size of formations hoi operates.

Also, "realistically" the amount of supplies transport caries have to decrease with range in a complicated way. First, your plane takes much more time to travel 5000km then 1000km. Then there is an issue of increasing the amount of fuel a plane has to carry, thus decreasing supply further. Which would have to be implemented IF there is a significant range difference between transport planes.

The game also doesn't really care for most of transport planes real duties, delivery of small size critical cargo/components quickly.
 
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Crecer13

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I'd assume their issue was the fact that paratroopers were already mostly a niche exploit, and air supply was never really viable for the size of formations hoi operates.

Also, "realistically" the amount of supplies transport caries have to decrease with range in a complicated way. First, your plane takes much more time to travel 5000km then 1000km. Then there is an issue of increasing the amount of fuel a plane has to carry, thus decreasing supply further. Which would have to be implemented IF there is a significant range difference between transport planes.

The game also doesn't really care for most of transport planes real duties, delivery of small size critical cargo/components quickly.
Well, the game already has strategic bombers with armor and a range of 5,000 kilometers and no one really cares about it. But transport planes are a problem for some reason. Although, as noted above, transport aircraft built from heavy / strategic bombers or were being developed and having the same range.
 

mursolini

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Well, the game already has strategic bombers with armor and a range of 5,000 kilometers and no one really cares about it.
Armor presumes a measure of armoring of vital components, and that did happen even on fighter planes, so what's your issue?
But transport planes are a problem for some reason.
For quite obvious reason: transports allow you to ignore supply, and transports allow you to just paradrop around victory points, which isn't intended way to play WW2 game.
Although, as noted above, transport aircraft built from heavy / strategic bombers or were being developed and having the same range.
In theory- yes. In practice any significant air landing or troop maneuver is 70s stuff.
 

Crecer13

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Armor presumes a measure of armoring of vital components, and that did happen even on fighter planes, so what's your issue?

For quite obvious reason: transports allow you to ignore supply, and transports allow you to just paradrop around victory points, which isn't intended way to play WW2 game.

In theory- yes. In practice any significant air landing or troop maneuver is 70s stuff.
Armor makes the aircraft heavier and therefore reduces the flight range, without armor the strategic bomber has an even greater range and at the same time the same load

All countries massively used aircraft for supply: encircled troops, for supplying troops or advanced groups, for supplying the besieged city.

Disagree. Since the 30s, the USSR’s theory of deep operation has been a massive use of the Airborne Forces, the war prevents the adoption of the Pe-8 transport, which can fly long distances, parachute 50 soldiers and transport the T-40 light tank. The Tu-64 in 1944 (Tu-10, aircraft 64) continues this concept, but its creation was canceled in favor of copying the B-29, in which the creation of a transport modification was originally planned during the design, which was done by the Tu-4T and Tu-4D. And immediately after the war, a massive modernization and mechanization of the Airborne Forces begins, what else they wanted before the war.

Therefore, I seriously expected the NSB to rework the ground doctrine for the USSR, taking into account the Deep Operation. Get focus in the USSR tree, finally get a more historical starting Airborne Forces and transport aircraft. I don’t know about the rest, but I just massively use the Airborne Forces and want to see this reflected in the game for the country in which the Airborne Forces are part of its main doctrine.
 
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mursolini

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Armor makes the aircraft heavier and therefore reduces the flight range, without armor the strategic bomber has an even greater range and at the same time the same load
What a coincidence, that is exactly what module is doing.
All countries massively used aircraft for supply: encircled troops, for supplying troops or advanced groups, for supplying the besieged city.
Massively is what % of overall consumption?

Disagree. Since the 30s, the USSR’s theory of deep operation has been a massive use of the Airborne Forces, the war prevents the adoption of the Pe-8 transport, which can fly long distances, parachute 50 soldiers and transport the T-40 light tank. The Tu-64 in 1944 (Tu-10, aircraft 64) continues this concept, but its creation was canceled in favor of copying the B-29, in which the creation of a transport modification was originally planned during the design, which was done by the Tu-4T and Tu-4D. And immediately after the war, a massive modernization and mechanization of the Airborne Forces begins, what else they wanted before the war.

Therefore, I seriously expected the NSB to rework the ground doctrine for the USSR, taking into account the Deep Operation. Get focus in the USSR tree, finally get a more historical starting Airborne Forces and transport aircraft. I don’t know about the rest, but I just massively use the Airborne Forces and want to see this reflected in the game for the country in which the Airborne Forces are part of its main doctrine.
Again "massively" is at most several brigades, whose job was to do what allies miserably failed later in the war at Market Garden,.despite managing to paradrop several divisions, having air dominance, and their enemy being uterly exhausted.

Again, airborne infantry is neat, but light infantry, with very limited heavy weapons and especially ammo didn't fare well against even proper infantry divisions, that had proper artillery, mortars and MGs, much less vs armor.
In game however paratroopers are massively OP, due to poor balance of artillery brigades.
 

TheMeInTeam

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I'd assume their issue was the fact that paratroopers were already mostly a niche exploit
playing hoi 4 is not an exploit

Also, "realistically" the amount of supplies transport caries have to decrease with range in a complicated way. First, your plane takes much more time to travel 5000km then 1000km. Then there is an issue of increasing the amount of fuel a plane has to carry, thus decreasing supply further. Which would have to be implemented IF there is a significant range difference between transport planes.
these "realistic" supply concerns are only somewhat acknowledged with supplies in general, but the model for supply in hoi 4 is functional enough that i wouldn't put it anywhere on my radar of "priorities for the game to fix".

you could equal the model for convoys and trains by requiring a fixed amount of extra transport planes as distance increases in steps based on distance. that would be every bit "good enough" as convoys are modeled right now (and convoy requirement scaling seems fine). while pdox is at it, they could actually fix range calculations for transport planes, which have been bugged since release until now lol

The game also doesn't really care for most of transport planes real duties, delivery of small size critical cargo/components quickly.
could be modeled with a toggle button on supply similar to trucks.
 
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Robosoldier1

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That is nice to see. Throw in assault gun and mech roles and I'll be willing to pay for it as a DLC.
Why would that be a DLC? That should be content literally already in the game. I already am taking a bit of umbrage at the fact Transport planes aren't able to be modified via the module system in place. If paradox literally comes back and says "Oh ya we now will give you the option to modify those armored trucks you like.... for 20 dollars." I'm not gonna be a happy person because we already paid for the "vehicle module DLC" already they just choose explicitly to leave said stuff out for whatever reason. However if the idea does come back we as the audience shouldn't have to shelve out more dollars because they devs conclude "well now were more willing to work on and implement this idea."
 
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vermicious knid

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Why would that be a DLC? That should be content literally already in the game. I already am taking a bit of umbrage at the fact Transport planes aren't able to be modified via the module system in place. If paradox literally comes back and says "Oh ya we now will give you the option to modify those armored trucks you like.... for 20 dollars." I'm not gonna be a happy person because we already paid for the "vehicle module DLC" already they just choose explicitly to leave said stuff out for whatever reason. However if the idea does come back we as the audience shouldn't have to shelve out more dollars because they devs conclude "well now were more willing to work on and implement this idea."
I am an old, tired man who is willing to spend $5 to have them finish some partially implemented content so my game is more enjoyable. Your position is undoubtedly philosophically correct...but I've already played 4500 hours of this game, so even if I have to pay a little extra I'm getting value.

I'm just happy there aren't micro-transactions where you get improved national spirits by buying upgraded moustaches for Hitler.
 
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marcelo r. r.

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Paratroops aside,,, the transport planes reminds me of these dramatic documentaries about Stalingrad, where the wheater, enemy anti-air and fuel rationing limited their use.

Transports could have a role in a pocket fights, not transporting entire divisions outside of it(it would be too unrealistic and exploiting). But could have some mission "pocket relief" that save some little % of manpower, like field hospitals do.

Theres also the Yamamoto killing, in hoi4 we don't have general/marshall killing, like in hoi2, due to commanders implemamention mechanics being different.

This blog have history about the problems of large scale relief operations:

It soon became clear that the Ju 52s needed to be augmented. Numbers of He 111 bombers were converted to a transport role. The bombers could carry 1.1 tons of supplies, although the need to use the bomb bay doors for supply operations complicated loading and unloading. The He 111s proved better able to fly, manoeuvre and defend themselves with their stronger defensive armament. Soviet pilots often sought out the Ju 52s rather than attack the more dangerous He 111s. The airlift was, however, burdened with less useful aircraft. The Ju 86 bomber had been developed in the 1930s but, as it was inferior to the He 111, was relegated to use as a trainer. Bomber Group 21 and 22 were drawn from the training schools and arrived at the airlift airfields with their obsolete Ju 86 bombers in early December. The aircraft had serviceability issues, a limited cargo capacity, and suffered heavy losses. The 16 Ju 86s that successfully escaped the Soviet tank attack on Tatsinskaya airfield on 24 December were sent back to the Reich.