transport planes and "Rosinenbomber"

[netbuster21]

Can you move regular troops with a plane or can you bring supply to troops which are encircled? Something like evacuate troops from Stalingrad and deliver supply to the rest of them?
I think that would be very nice!

 

[seattle]

Are you asking if you can do it in HoI 1?
No.

Should you be able to do it in HoI 2?

No!

It isn't really necessary. The luftwaffe failed terribly over Stalingrad and lost some hundred planes while doing so.

The "Rosinenbomber" over West-Berlin also couldn't supply half of the population. They are just a myth. West-Berlin wasn't supplied by air. The story is just too beautiful not to be sold as the truth.

To sum it up:

In war times it isn't possible to supply an encircled army or to evade the soldiers properly. The losses are just too high, the effectivity is too low.

In peace time it isn't relevant for HoI 2. And even with no enemy air force interfering even the best airforce couldn't supply the troops properly.

..........................

You could implement it, but it had to be made realistic. And realistic would mean that no one would do it because it had to be ineffective.

 

[Orthank]

The first really big airbridge was made by Germans in the beginning of 42 to supply two encircled armies - about 100 000 troops (IInd Armeekorp gen. von Brockdorff-Ahlefeldt and Xth Armeekorp gen. Hansen) by soviets (34th army gen Berzarin and 11th army gen. Morozow) in area of Demiansk - similar in largment to area of Berlin. For four months 350 transportplanes (mostly Ju-52) transport daily 300 tons of supplies!!!

This airbridge was succesfull! That's why idea of airbridge appeare in Stlingrad. In stalingrad biggest problem was loses of planes and also much more troops neede to be suplied - about 600 000, for every 10 that goes only 6 reach airfield and only 4 comes back.

So i am strongly for to allowed supply encircled units by transport planes. If this will be possible would depence only on preparation for war, number of transport planes (that are now too expensive) and fighters.

 

[Spruce]

about logic

supreme HQ = should we supply our encircled army by air - at Stalingrad?

Luftwaffe command = No! We could lose many planes - do we have air superiority? No, we have not, it's a no go for us...

army command = what's the expected fatalities within the Luftwaffe from this air bridge? We've got 600.000 of our best boys there in the cold - without bullets and food. If they got to die - they better die firing their guns with food in their bags,

Luftwaffe command = depends on priorities and resources!

supreme HQ = ok, all Luftwaffe resources on air bridge - we can't afford to loose that army.

logic can be so easy,

air bridge should be included - for sure. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't work.

Bottomline is that you never leave your army dying, just doing nothing...

 

[cmstea0]

if the AI isn't able to use it successfully then perhaps it's best left off the feature list.

i'm personally indifferent either way.

 

[unmerged(25612)]

I support this idea.

Air bridges are infact an important aspect of air superiority, that should be represented.

 

[Orthank]

if the AI isn't able to use it successfully then perhaps it's best left off the feature list.

i'm personally indifferent either way.

AI ??? What are writing about?

 

[unmerged(25612)]

AI ??? What are writing about?

AI = Artificial Intelligence.

He means that the computer players should be able to use the system.

 

[Orthank]

There is no AI in this game, playing Ethiopia i survive till april 1939 normal/normal! I also win in Gotterdammerung on very hard/furious. ONLY MULTIPLAYER is worth to play.

 

[Zero]

I think this should be possible!
Transport planes are expansive and can be shot down by fighters easily so I don't think this would be overpowered. The should not be too effektive so that you can supply only a few divisons and have to dissolve the rest to give the important ones a chance to survive. It would make the air war more interesting and fighters and air superiority would be more important as it is now. But if it's implanted the ai must know how to use it. If it doesn't it's worthless...

 

[unmerged(25612)]

There is no AI in this game, playing Ethiopia i survive till april 1939 normal/normal! I also win in Gotterdammerung on very hard/furious. ONLY MULTIPLAYER is worth to play.

Multiplayer might be worth playing if I didn`t have to open 100 ports for it. I mean 100 ports, that is plain ludicurous!!! Damn DirectX and Microsoft!

(But that`s a bit OT )

 

[unmerged(10486)]

Multiplayer might be worth playing if I didn`t have to open 100 ports for it. I mean 100 ports, that is plain ludicurous!!! Damn DirectX and Microsoft!

(But that`s a bit OT )

Ahh yes.. when will we see Paradox games on Linux?

*daydreams*

 

[Tormodius]

In peace time it should be possible to redeploy a division from an enclave (surrounded) inside any territory, IMO both neutral or ally, island or mainland... just so you don't have to bother with logistics and strategic movement when not in a war.

In war time: Disable that possibility.
No way to help a surrounded division but to break through with force.

 

[TeutonicKnight]

Are you asking if you can do it in HoI 1?
No.

Should you be able to do it in HoI 2?

No!

It isn't really necessary. The luftwaffe failed terribly over Stalingrad and lost some hundred planes while doing so.

The "Rosinenbomber" over West-Berlin also couldn't supply half of the population. They are just a myth. West-Berlin wasn't supplied by air. The story is just too beautiful not to be sold as the truth.

To sum it up:

In war times it isn't possible to supply an encircled army or to evade the soldiers properly. The losses are just too high, the effectivity is too low.

In peace time it isn't relevant for HoI 2. And even with no enemy air force interfering even the best airforce couldn't supply the troops properly.

..........................

You could implement it, but it had to be made realistic. And realistic would mean that no one would do it because it had to be ineffective.

What the hell have you been smoking or reading? The Berlin airlift did work, at first the allies were barely able to give a basic level of sustenance, but as it went on and it became more "routine" the level of supplies grew.

 

[unmerged(18043)]

Um I'm pretty sure they did suply West Berlin by air. At least that was what my understanding was from the few German people that were alive back then that I was able to talk to (read 2 or 3) Maybe they were wrong I know onld age can do things to a mind.

But Yeah If you can Paradrop maybe you could use the Transports to bring suplies like the boat transports do. C'mon if you can Land in the Prov why can't empty planes deliver suplies?

Or Set it up like the Convoys and then the AI could do it too?

 

[unmerged(19955)]

if the AI isn't able to use it successfully then perhaps it's best left off the feature list.

There is no AI in this game, playing Ethiopia i survive till april 1939 normal/normal! I also win in Gotterdammerung on very hard/furious. ONLY MULTIPLAYER is worth to play.

These are very good points. I think that instead of adding new features and sliders in the game paradox should be concentrating on AI. Most players _do_ play single player. At least I have problems finding enough players who are interested in playing these kind of games when I have time (~18-22 GMT+0300)

I agree with Orthank, HoI AI sucks. It can't use properly most of the available options and warfare is it's biggest drawback. But my opinion is that MULTIPLAYER should be worth to play!

 

[javiermcabo]

There is no AI in this game, playing Ethiopia i survive till april 1939 normal/normal! I also win in Gotterdammerung on very hard/furious. ONLY MULTIPLAYER is worth to play.

Good point.
Those AAR make me sick sometimes... If I play Poland and I manage to conquer Europe, then the game is not properly held by the AI.

 

[unmerged(18043)]

Now see that's not Nice Maybe Poland could have taken Europe if they had wanted to.

But no your right in a lot of ways. I thin games of these complexity are hard to code AI for.

SP is what pays the games way. Maybe HoI2 will have better AI.

 

[Orthank]

First Paradox need to give us nice and working tools and basement for game, no bugs, no dissapearing units in naval transports, no paratroops that are starving in air transports because they cannot leave them until organisation of airplanes reach maximum, no minister's skills that works even after minister is off (air to ground and others...) :rofl: , and many many many others that are still in this game after beeing hundreds of tousends time pointed out!
If basement rules/tools will work than they can think about AI, ok.

So according to the topic, please do it like this:

one airtransport with strenght 100 should have possibility to supply easly two/three divisions (or even more) making one flight per day (we all know that it's possible to make more than one flight per 24hours - player can try to supplie more units but it's gamble and risky). It should looks as an option, "supply unit" added to existing naval/tactical... bombing, and supply stock should appear in sourrunded area increasing if there will be more supplies that needed. Such units musn't reinforce as it's obious, only extra paratroops could be added (by paradrop) to support sourrunded units.

If enemy will have airsuperiority, it means that airbridge will be impossible to be done - you will lose all your transoprts .

Another example of supplying units by airbridge: North Africa in 1943 almost all supplies for German units was made by airplanes Ju52 and Me 232 Gigant. So please don't write me that is impossible!

Cheers,
Orthank

 

[Tormodius]

Good point.
Those AAR make me sick sometimes... If I play Poland and I manage to conquer Europe, then the game is not properly held by the AI.

Yeah, it's too easy to win. If you need a bit more challenge, try with a mod!
Personally, I enjoy playing hardCORE...