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Pellaken

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I'm interested in the transition from conflicts involving armies of people wielding swords, spears, axes, and maces to people wielding guns, more guns, even more guns, and even yet more guns.

My knowledge of historical warfare is actually quite lax. I know by the time of the US revolution, 1770 or so, guns were the primary weapon of war; muskets and the sort.

I also know that during the Hundred years war, which ended in the 1450s, individual soldiers with individual guns (they had cannons AFAIK) was not really a thing.

So
Somewhere between 1460 and 1760 war transitioned from a thing of flying arrows to a thing of flying bullets.


I'm wondering... when did this happen?
Did it happen in some places before others? For some reason I have a picture of a Frenchman with a musket in my mind, did the French use this first, did it then spread out to, for example, Germany before Poland, etc.

I'm curious of the timeline of all of this.
 

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War of Spanish Succession I think. Before then it was formations of pike and shot, after that it was muskets with bayonets.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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War of Spanish Succession I think. Before then it was formations of pike and shot, after that it was muskets with bayonets.
Yes, at this point they used less and less pikes and more and more guns. The final breakthrough was the use of the ring bayonet tho.

Also,(to the op) maces, swords and axes got not replaced by guns, they got replaced by halberds,pikes,2-handed swords and razor sharp swords like the rapier. Then we got the trend to pike and shot formation and then happpened what was said above.
 
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Pellaken

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It seems, if what I read is accurate, the transition really started in 1697 with the introduction of the socket bayonet.

I'd be very interested to learn more about this.


It would seem that by 1714, every country in Europe was using guns as the primary weapon.
 
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soda7777777

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Yes, at this point they used less and less pikes and more and more guns. The final breakthrough was the use of the ring bayonet tho.

Also,(to the op) maces, swords and axes got not replaced by guns, they got replaced by halberds,pikes,2-handed swords and razor sharp swords like the rapier. Then we got the trend to pike and shot formation and then happpened what was said above.

I mean, didn't cavalry only stop using swords around WWI?
 

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The ring bayonet increased firepower (in the sense that you didn't need to stop shooting when the enemy got close or have dedicated pikemen), but wasn't the melee still quite important at this stage? Even into Napoleonic times I thought you could get a 2-3 shots off into an advancing force while they closed, not enough to actually stop them in most cases.

If I'm describing this correctly then the 'era of the gun' being dated to the 18th century has more to do with the gun becoming a passable melee weapon than firepower itself completely dominating.
 

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I mean, didn't cavalry only stop using swords around WWI?
Real cavalry used sabres as long as it existed as functional military force. AFAIK the last shock cav forces got reorganised or disbanded after WWII.

The ring bayonet increased firepower (in the sense that you didn't need to stop shooting when the enemy got close or have dedicated pikemen), but wasn't the melee still quite important at this stage? Even into Napoleonic times I thought you could get a 2-3 shots off into an advancing force while they closed, not enough to actually stop them in most cases.

If I'm describing this correctly then the 'era of the gun' being dated to the 18th century has more to do with the gun becoming a passable melee weapon than firepower itself completely dominating.
Depends. Bayonet charges were in use at least until WWI, however their usefulness was circumstantial, frequently as shock and awe tactic. AFAIK a Napoleonic era musketeer could fire a couple of rounds per minute, which could still make the costs of charging prohibitive. Considering also that an advancing line infantry would fire more slowly, it would make more sense to use specialised troops to charge and flank an enemy line.
 

soda7777777

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Real cavalry used sabres as long as it existed as functional military force. AFAIK the last shock cav forces got reorganised or disbanded after WWII.

That as well. I remember something about the US military wanting to use it again in Afghanistan, since mules and horses are more reliable then their trucks.
 

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There's a couple of differnet questions here: The first is "When did guns replace bow and arrow?" the answer is "It depends." Bows and arrows still outperormed guns in many situations until at least the mid-late 19th century. Native americans used bow and arrow quite effectively. (especially againt an unarmored enemy a bow is just as deadly and much quicker to fire) in Europe it was a gradual thing, but the ottomans still used archers in the 17th century, IIRC. (the problem was that archers were much harder to train, so losses tended to mean they'd be replaced with gun-armed troops) and the same is true for tatars, etc. on the steppes.

Guns seems to have largely replaced the crossbow in the 16th century at some point: By the 30-years war everyone is using guns of various types, and pikes, sabres, etc. but there's very little mention of crossbows and bows among regular military units.

For hand-to-hand melee weapons never quite disappared: Axes, swords etc. continued to be carried by officers or on ships (where the cramped conditions could make using a musket/bayonet tricky) as well as among specialized detachments and in siege warfare, the seems like in this particular role they were replaced by revolvers and other fast-firing weapons in the 19th century. (and later with flamethrowers and SMG's)

Pikes were largely replace by the bayonet by the 18th century, ironically this lead to the return of the lance for cavalry, since a lancer couldn't outrange a pikeman but could skewer a musketeer with bayonet (assuming he wasn't shot first ofc.)

Cavalry continued to use sabres until WWI, too.
 

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Hand-held firearms as they became available fairly quickly replace crossbows and bows in the early 16th century, particularly with the Italian Wars but also in other parts of the world - the Ottoman Janissaries had a firearm corps, as did the last Mamluk Sultans and the Persians in the 1520s. Western Europe was pike-and-shot territory, at least from the time the Spaniards developed the Colunela and later Tercio formations, found they worked very well, and got copied by others. That was in place in the Italian Wars. In Eastern Europe firearms spread more slowly but when they did there was also a tendency to deploy units of arquebusiers/musketeers without pikes, which worked about as well as you'd expect in an area where cavalry was rather common. The Cossacks got around this with wagon laagers or other field fortifications and also by often fighting from boats. Russian Streltsy used a musket and axe combination, and there are other troops with firearms and melee weapons from around the area including Janissaries. Western Europe kept the pike until late in the 17th century, varying depending on the nation, with the bayonet (first the plug bayonet and then the ring) equipping their infantry.

Cavalry, as others have said, kept using the sabre and lance as late as it was deployed, post World War Two in the Soviet army.
 

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I don't think it was as much a transistion from swords to guns, as it was a transistion from heavy cannons (artillery) to hand-held cannons. The first guns (hand held) looked a lot like tiny cannons. Also, they were imprecise (and used shot as often as bullets) whereas an arrow when shot as direct fire, had to be precise - a feature later adopted in the rifles.
So guns weren't "decendants" of the sword (or even the bow) as such.
 

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I'd say the Spanish army of the very early 16th century was the first to employ individual firearms on a large scale. As was mentioned in a previous thread, the Battle of Cerignola (in Italy) in 1503, when the Spanish defeated a much larger French army thanks to their guns, was probably the first battle to be decided by firepower.

The use of firearms spread through Italy during the Italian Wars, and through the Spanish dominions, and from there quickly to places like France, England and Germany, and more slowly to the rest of Europe. The Ottoman Empire also used firearms early on. One interesting sign of the spread of guns was that in 1545, the English warship Mary Rose sank with a cargo of weapons on board - including 250 longbows and 50 handguns and muskets. That shows that the use of firearms was gradually spreading but had not yet become universal. However, guns had a huge advantage over longbows - you could train a peasant to fire a musket in a few weeks, but it took years to properly train a longbowman. By 1600 the musket had entirely replaced the bow or crossbow in European armies.

They still used melee weapons as well, though. An early musket could take several minutes to reload (by the 18th century that was down to 20 seconds or so, thanks to innovations like flintlocks, pre-prepared cartridges and lighter muskets). It was also hopelessly inaccurate, with only a 50/50 chance of hitting a man-sized target at 60 metres even under ideal conditions - much less with the smoke, noise and confusion of a battlefield. If someone is charging at you with a sharp stick and you miss your shot, he can close that 60 metres faster than you can reload.

As such, armies relied on a combination of weapon systems - in the 17th century that meant a block of pikemen standing firm in the centre with musketeers supporting them. If the enemy came too close the musketeers could duck under the hedge of pike-points and take shelter there. Otherwise, the musketeers would keep up a steady fire on th enemy - they wouldn't actually kill all that many of them, but the bangs and the hiss of musket-balls whizzing around you, and the screams as individuals in the ranks were unlucky enough to be hit, would wear down the morale of the defending troops. Eventually one side or the other would start to waver; that solid defensive line of pikes would start to break up, and perhaps a few soldiers in the back ranks would turn and run away. At that point, the musketeers would draw their swords or reverse their muskets to use as clubs, the pikemen would level their pikes, and you'd charge the enemy. It was that melee that caused the most casualties or caused the enemy to rout, not the hours of gunfire that preceded it.

Incidentally, one of the key innovations in European military science that gave them the edge over non-European nations from the 17th century onwards was less the technology itself, as the fact that their soldiers learned to use disciplined formations of combined arms. If you look at contemporary drawings of Ottoman or Indian or Chinese soldiers, you'll see them using guns, but usually as individual warriors demonstrating their skills, not as part of a coordinated use of tactics - and the same army would include a mixture of musketeers and archers. Drawings of European armies from the same period emphasise their disciplined formations and massed ranks of uniformly-armed troops.


As others have mentioned, the War of the Spanish Succession circa 1700 was when the bayonet became standard equipment, and so there was no need for separate pikemen to accompany the musketeers. Firepower was also becoming more deadly, and it was becoming more common for battles to be decided by an exchange of shots without melee combat - but this was by no means yet universal. Karl XII's Swedish army, for example, was famous for delivering a single volley of musket fire then immediately charging the enemy for hand-to-hand combat while they were still reeling from the impact of the musket fire.

The introduction of the rifle in the 19th century really changed things. Now a soldier could hit the enemy at 700 metres instead of 70 metres. Hand-to-hand combat became rare, except in special circumstances such as European armies facing pre-modern native forces, or close-quarter battle such as trench warfare.

Even so, the bayonet is not entirely obsolete. There have even been incidents in the Iraq War where Coalition troops defeated insurgents by fixing bayonets and charging. There's something extremely intimidating about a line of big, beefy men with levelled bayonets charging at you, and soldiers with poor morale or lack of experience will often instinctively turn and run.
 

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Pikes were largely replace by the bayonet by the 18th century, ironically this lead to the return of the lance for cavalry, since a lancer couldn't outrange a pikeman but could skewer a musketeer with bayonet (assuming he wasn't shot first ofc.)
.
It even lead to a renaisance of cavalary during the Napoleonic wars. Together with larger and more horses, carbines and new tactics cavalary was suddenly dangerous again.
 

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Regarding the pike part of pike and shot:

Do we have any reliable information on how two pike formations fought each other? Because I cant see it turn into anything but a mutually annihilative bloodbath very, very quickly.
 

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Regarding the pike part of pike and shot:

Do we have any reliable information on how two pike formations fought each other? Because I cant see it turn into anything but a mutually annihilative bloodbath very, very quickly.
Afaik they had 2-handers in their ranks in the late medieval era to cut the other ones pikes while closing in.
 

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Afaik they had 2-handers in their ranks in the late medieval era to cut the other ones pikes while closing in.
You cannot cut a pike with sword. It is relatively flexible and you need something to "fix" the pointy end in place to cut it or the blade will just slip along the shaft. Soldiers with halberds and two-handed swords were reserve force and banner protection detachment.

Regarding the pike part of pike and shot:

Do we have any reliable information on how two pike formations fought each other? Because I cant see it turn into anything but a mutually annihilative bloodbath very, very quickly.
Combat between two pike blocks was a bloodbath indeed. But again protracted melee fighting where both sides were able to hold ground were extremely rare in any time. You just do not charge the opponent if you think that they will not break.
 

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Do we have any reliable information on how two pike formations fought each other? Because I cant see it turn into anything but a mutually annihilative bloodbath very, very quickly.
From 'Instructions, Observations and Orders Mylitarie' by Sir John Smythe, published in 1591 (spelling modernised):


That the Sergeant Major or Captains would have their pikemen to charge or to receive a charge of another square of pikemen their Enemies, then are they to say to the first ranks of pikemen. `Straighten and close your ranks, couch your pikes and charge': which being pronounced, all the pikemen of the first rank must join and close themselves in front, letting fall the points of their pikes and carying them close breast high with both their hands steadily and firmly, the points full in the faces of their Enemies.

And the second rank likewise straightening and closing themselves by flank and front, and joining themselves to the back of the first rank, and following them step with step carrying their pikes above-hand over the shoulders of the first rank the points of their pikes likewise towards the faces of their Enemies. And the third rank closing and straightening themselves in flank and front, and joining themselves to the back of the second rank; And the fourth rank likewise straightening and closing themselves to the backs and shoulders of the third rank, and carrying their pikes firmly with both their hands over the shoulders of all the ranks before them, the points of their pikes likewise towards the faces of their enemies approaching.

And all the rest of the ranks of pikemen following step with step each one at the heels of the other must carry their pikes still upright in the palms of their hands, and in bolts of their armes as above said, but yet bending the points of them somewhat towards their enemies, that they may be seen ready in an instant to let fall the points of their pikes towards their enemies, and to succour the rank before them upon any necessity.
(...)

And all those four ranks marching or moving forward together pace with pace and step with step, carrying their pikes firmly with both their hands breast high as aforesaid their points full in their enemies' faces, they do altogether give a puissant thrust, the points of the first rank of pikes, first lighting upon the faces of the first rank or ranks of their enemies; and the points of the second, third and fourth ranks, subsequently in a manner all in an instant, do all one after another in such terrible sort light upon the faces, breasts and bodies of the formost ranks of the enemies that do stand still pushing and foining with their pikes in their ranks opened and enlarged, that they never give them any leisure and ways to pull back and recover the use of their pikes to give any new thrusts, nor yet to close their ranks enlarged, but do overthrow, disorder and break them with a great facility, as if they were but a flock of geese; as all men of right consideration and judgement may easily consider and see.

But after all this it may be, that some very curious and not skilfull in actions of Arms, may demand what the foremost ranks of this well ordered and practised squadron before mentioned shall do after they have given their aforesaid puissant blows and thrusts with their pikes in case that they do not at first encounter overthrow and break the contrary squadron of their enemies:

Therunto I say, that the foremost ranks of the squadron having with the points of their pikes lighted upon the bare faces of the foremost ranks of their enemies, or upon their Collars, pouldrons, cuirasses, tasses, or disarmed parts of their thighs; by which blows given they have either slain, overthrown, or wounded those that they have lighted upon, or that the point of their pikes lighting upon their armours have glanced off, and beyond them; in such sort as by the nearness of the foremost ranks of their enemies before them, they have not space enough again to thrust; nor that by the nearness of their fellows' ranks next behind them, they have any convenient elbow room to pull back their pikes to give a new thrust; by means wherof they have utterly lost the use of their pikes, they therefore must either presently let them fall to the ground as unprofitable; or else may with both their hands dart, and throw them as far forward into and amongst the ranks of their enemies as they can, to intent by the length of them to trouble their ranks, and presently in the twinkling of an eye or instant, must draw their short arming swords and daggers, and give a blow and thrust (termed a half reverse, and thrust) all at, and in one time at their faces: And therewithall must presently in an instant, with their daggers in their left hands, thrust at the bottom of their enemies' bellies under the lammes of their Cuirasses, or at any other disarmed parts:

In such sort as then all the ranks of the whole squadron one at the heels of the other pressing in order forward, do with short weapons, and with the force of their ranks closed, seek to wound, open, or bear over the ranks of their enemies to their utter ruin.

*************************

Something to remember is that yes, a formed pike formation charging into another formed pike formation head-on would indeed be very bloody. That's why you tried not to do that. You'd bring along musketeers, who would break up and disorganise the enemy with their fire first, and only charge once they were in disarray. Or you'd try to outflank them and hit them from behind. Or you'd wait for them to try and move, which itself would disorganise a badly-trained regiment. Or you'd send cavalry around their flank, so they had the choice of facing you or facing the horsemen.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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You cannot cut a pike with sword. It is relatively flexible and you need something to "fix" the pointy end in place to cut it or the blade will just slip along the shaft. Soldiers with halberds and two-handed swords were reserve force and banner protection detachment.

.
Yes ,excuse me my memory..... they used them to swing the pikes aside to exploit and widen a gap.
 

krieger11b

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There's a couple of differnet questions here: The first is "When did guns replace bow and arrow?" the answer is "It depends." Bows and arrows still outperormed guns in many situations until at least the mid-late 19th century. Native americans used bow and arrow quite effectively. (especially againt an unarmored enemy a bow is just as deadly and much quicker to fire) in Europe it was a gradual thing, but the ottomans still used archers in the 17th century, IIRC. (the problem was that archers were much harder to train, so losses tended to mean they'd be replaced with gun-armed troops) and the same is true for tatars, etc. on the steppes.

This is the main reason. It was simply cheaper and faster to train people on muskets in rectangle formations and fire at point blank range than to train someone for a decade or more to become a truely effective archer. Also an armored knight does take a bit less time, is very expensive and slow, easy pickings for a musketeer.
 

CruelDwarf

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This is the main reason. It was simply cheaper and faster to train people on muskets in rectangle formations and fire at point blank range than to train someone for a decade or more to become a truely effective archer. Also an armored knight does take a bit less time, is very expensive and slow, easy pickings for a musketeer.
Armoured knight is anything but slow.