Transfer the holy place of the pagans from Plock

[Adam Joseph]

Is it possible to transfer the holy place of the pagans from Plock to the west? As far as I know, there was no significant cult center in this place. There were, however, several important centers of paganism in Poland. The first thing that comes to my mind is Góra Ślęża (recorded in 1017 as Silensi) - a powerful temple with several embankment lines, located in Lower Silesia. The second one, which played even a more significant role, is the Lech Hill in Gniezno - the temple of the god Nyj. Its conquest started the expansion of the Polans and for the next decades remained a political center, and after the adoption of Christianity, it remained a religious center because it sanctified the cathedral there.

 

[Zohtun]

You mean Slavic Pagans? I had to go into the wiki for this one, I was thinking you meant the generic history file "Pagan" until I checked and noticed only Slavic Pagans use Plock.

 

[Adam Joseph]

Yes. Slavic pagans.

 

[Arona]

Holy places should be dynamic, like if character with 2000 piety decides to create new holy place then he/she has option what holyplace to remove first and then it makes new temple as holyplace.

 

[moscal]

Yes and in resoult Judaism lose Jerusalem as Holy place... So much realism and historicism...

 

[Ruwaard]

Yes and in resoult Judaism lose Jerusalem as Holy place... So much realism and historicism...

Why can’t there be a bit of both? Obvious ones like Jerusalem (for Judaism, Christianity and Islam) are locked, while a few more randomly chosen ones may be changed?

 

[Adam Joseph]

One could create a system in which new sacred places arise, but there would have to be a valid reason. Reformation, for example. However, the one who carries out the reformation has holy places anyway, So why do he need new ones? And the problem of moral authority arises. So maybe the right to transfer the holy place in case of reformation (can it be done with a place outside our borders - after all, we are reforming religion).
Notwithstanding the above, I set up this thread to suggest the transfer of the ahistorical holy place of Slavic pagans. I think that this is a good time to change if DLC focused on religion is planned.

 

[moscal]

Notwithstanding the above, I set up this thread to suggest the transfer of the ahistorical holy place of Slavic pagans. I think that this is a good time to change if DLC focused on religion is planned.

Plock isn't ahistorical holy place. Here you have text of Izabella Wenska (in english). In site 10 is fragment about Plock. So in Plock was any big sanctuary.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjso6e56ezbAhUsM5oKHZWZBxwQFjACegQIARBD&url=https://repozytorium.ur.edu.pl/bitstream/handle/item/2916/8%20wenska-sacrifices%20among.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y&usg=AOvVaw1Vwot5x6zwmI5GM3ppQd_I

And second problem with location in Ślęża - higher difficulty reformation for Slavs, where now reformation for Slavs is one of the most difficult in CK2.

 

[Adam Joseph]

Fine. You calmed me down. There was an altar in Płock. But, there is a good chance that there will be traces of worship in some Slavic territory. The holy place should be reflected in archeology and, if possible, in historical documents and should influence the tribal policy too. Like Arkona, Ślęża or Kiev (to some extent the Lech's Hill). I still think that the holy place of the Slavs should be moved, but I really thank you for the link. I learned a lot of new things.

 

[Orphalesion]

Holy places should be dynamic, like if character with 2000 piety decides to create new holy place then he/she has option what holyplace to remove first and then it makes new temple as holyplace.

^This. By the time the cultural and political hub of my Pagan Empire has shifted to Rome/Alexandria/Mekka it just ends up being awkward to have all it's holy sites being somewhere in Northern or Eastern Europe, Central Asia or Western Africa.

One could create a system in which new sacred places arise, but there would have to be a valid reason. Reformation, for example. However, the one who carries out the reformation has holy places anyway, So why do he need new ones? And the problem of moral authority arises. So maybe the right to transfer the holy place in case of reformation (can it be done with a place outside our borders - after all, we are reforming religion).

I agree that there should be a reason, but as you point out reformation might be a less optimal, if very logical, reason. Maybe instead it could be a uncommon/rare event or event chain. Maybe something involving religious visions and/or the construction of a particularly magnificent temple. Or the enshrinement of a religious artifact, such as Thor's Hammer.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

^This. By the time the cultural and political hub of my Pagan Empire has shifted to Rome/Alexandria/Mekka it just ends up being awkward to have all it's holy sites being somewhere in Northern or Eastern Europe, Central Asia or Western Africa.



I agree that there should be a reason, but as you point out reformation might be a less optimal, if very logical, reason. Maybe instead it could be a uncommon/rare event or event chain. Maybe something involving religious visions and/or the construction of a particularly magnificent temple. Or the enshrinement of a religious artifact, such as Thor's Hammer.

Pft.

Mjolnir should be being used in battle by the Fylkir at every opportunity.

Even if it does sometimes need a new handle, or to have the head reforged...

 

[Orphalesion]

Pft.

Mjolnir should be being used in battle by the Fylkir at every opportunity.

Even if it does sometimes need a new handle, or to have the head reforged...

Well he have already stolen Mjolnir from his owner, thus ensuring that he and the other Aesir will be pretty much screwed when the next nasty from Utgard shows up, so yeah we might as well use it. Though it's kinda funny how we're able to do that despite neither owning Thor's magical gloves nor belt to enhance our strength...

But well it'd work with pretty much any pagan artifact, particularly if they introduce more; for Norse examples, you could enshrine Brisingamen somewhere or the Mead of Poetry. Bottomline I think that something like that would justify a place becoming a new Holy Site.

 

[Adam Joseph]

In spite of everything, it seems to me that Reformation is the only reasonable reason for changing the location of the holy place. A place where changes in doctrine would be determined, such as places of councils (I'm already thinking of a new DLC) aren't considered sacred (Nikea, Konstancja). In the case of artifacts, I see the possibility of donating a religious artifact to the temple owner in order to create a sanctuary (a small profit in piety and a potential loss of the moral authority of religion in the event of loss or plundering of the sanctuary).

 

[Orphalesion]

In spite of everything, it seems to me that Reformation is the only reasonable reason for changing the location of the holy place.

But why this arbitrary rule, when that is not at all how most of the Holy Sites in the game became Holy Sites...

If we look at the Norse ones:
Upsala, Seeland and Naumadal were the sites of large, important temple complexes, so you should be able to supplant them by building more grand, or centralized temples.
Braunschweig was the location of the Irminsul, a holy artifact (and imho might liable to lose that status if Charlemagne gets to burn the thing) so it should be able to supplanted by enshrining an artifact in a different temple.
And Sjaelland is the location of the events of Beowulf.

And even with the non-Pagan fates: Canterburry, Santiago and Cologne, and well, even Rome, were just important bishoprics and/or pilgramage sites, while Jerusalem was the birthplace of Jesus. Though Rome kind of does fit the reformation angle as well, as do Mecca and Medina

Yes it should be difficult and costly to change a religious site, it should be something that perhaps only happens once or twice in a playthrough, but I disagree that the site of the Reformation should be the only potential new holy site.

 

[Adam Joseph]

All in all, I must agree that some of the sacred places are arbitrary. Therefore, I think that it wouldn't be a huge misuse if some of them could be changed. Provided that the most important ones would be immutable (like Mekka, Jerusalem). And of course for important reasons.

And in this situation I will be able to manually change this unfortunate Plock.