Training and World Tension

[hkrommel]

After watching the World War Wednesday stream, I noticed that the German player had soldiers training along the border with Poland. While almost every developed nation in the world holds field exercises, holding them along the border with another nation is generally seen as provocative and threatening.

As such, should it affect world tension, or at the very least relations with the country you are training next to?

 

[Nelfe]

After watching the World War Wednesday stream, I noticed that the German player had soldiers training along the border with Poland. While almost every developed nation in the world holds field exercises, holding them along the border with another nation is generally seen as provocative and threatening.

As such, should it affect world tension, or at the very least relations with the country you are training next to?

It has an effect on trade (number of troops on the border has an influence on the willingness of your neighbors to trade with you).

 

[hkrommel]

It has an effect on trade (number of troops on the border has an influence on the willingness of your neighbors to trade with you).

Screenshots? Dev comments? I'm curious as to what the relation is there.

 

[Nelfe]

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...elopment-diary-11th-of-september-2015.881207/

"Each nation has a trade influence with another nation, which is depending on distance and relations, but can also be modified by placing troops on their borders to threaten them to trade to you before other nations. Any puppet nations are always forced to give up full trade rights to their masters."

 

[hkrommel]

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...elopment-diary-11th-of-september-2015.881207/

"Each nation has a trade influence with another nation, which is depending on distance and relations, but can also be modified by placing troops on their borders to threaten them to trade to you before other nations. Any puppet nations are always forced to give up full trade rights to their masters."

IMHO it should affect relations as well. Nobody likes being threatened.

 

[Nelfe]

IMHO it should affect relations as well. Nobody likes being threatened.

AFAIK, we know nothing on it as we didn't have any DD on diplomacy for the moment. So it's still possible

 

[Denkt]

Don't think it should as democracies could use it to raise world tension and thus enter the war earlier. And blockning democrocies from training would hurt them alot.

 

[hkrommel]

Don't think it should as democracies could use it to raise world tension and thus enter the war earlier. And blockning democrocies from training would hurt them alot.

Perhaps just damaging relations then?

 

[jamesd]

After watching the World War Wednesday stream, I noticed that the German player had soldiers training along the border with Poland. While almost every developed nation in the world holds field exercises, holding them along the border with another nation is generally seen as provocative and threatening.

As such, should it affect world tension, or at the very least relations with the country you are training next to?

I see where you're coming from, but I think simplifying game play should win out over realism in this instance.

 

[hkrommel]

I see where you're coming from, but I think simplifying game play should win out over realism in this instance.

It already affects trade so I don't see how it also affecting relations would make anything more complex. It's certainly intuitive, and with how UI has been improved its effects would be fairly straightforward.

 

[jamesd]

It already affects trade so I don't see how it also affecting relations would make anything more complex. It's certainly intuitive, and with how UI has been improved its effects would be fairly straightforward.

Its a matter of the player needing to move divisions away from the border to train and then move them back again that gets me on this.

Edit: Its also a matter of training can take a variety of forms, including fitness, target practice, class room lectures, stripping and cleaning weapons etc that can all be done on base and even if that base is within 50 kms of a border its normal day to day stuff that won't impact relations with neighbours at all.

 

[hkrommel]

Its a matter of the player needing to move divisions away from the border to train and then move them back again that gets me on this.

Edit: Its also a matter of training can take a variety of forms, including fitness, target practice, class room lectures, stripping and cleaning weapons etc that can all be done on base and even if that base is within 50 kms of a border its normal day to day stuff that won't impact relations with neighbours at all.

Exactly, so it would be like reality where these maneuvers are done away from borders normally. Just create a training group, position them away from the borders, and have them train. I'm pretty sure the German player did that in the stream as well.

As for the non-impactful training you mention:

Speaking of that, experience is now separated into several levels: Green Soldiers, Trained, Regular, Seasoned and finally Veterans. Training off-map while in the deployment queue can only bring your troops up to a maximum of Trained, and simulates training in barracks etc. To get higher you will need to do more.

You can train units on the map when deployed as well and this basically simulates large-scale exercises and war games. Soldiers trained on the map can reach up to Regular status.

Basically the stuff you mention (fitness, target practice, etc.) is simulated in off-map training which brings soldiers from "green" to "trained" when completed. The on-map training is these soldiers using the equipment they would use normally in a real-world scenario, bringing them to "regular." So yes, the on-map stuff is the large scale maneuvers.

 

[ajarnlance]

I was amazed to read recently that the USSR actually allowed the Germans to hold military exercises INSIDE Russia before the war as a way to circumvent the Versailles Treaty restrictions on German military activity. It makes you wonder what Stalin was thinking... I don't suppose there will be a way to copy this very unusual occurence in the game.. unless it could be modded in as a decision early on...

 

[cacti]

It depends on who and where you send said troops to train. If you are are playing the US and you do joint training ops with the Canadians it should have no impact what so ever on world tension with any axis powers. If however you are playing the Germans and you do joint training ops with ANYBODY it should effect world tension due to the history involved. Also after that German operation occurs, Most Allied training ops should trigger some incremental increases in tension. In my opinion those examples would be:

1: Russians training with Poles - sizable increase
2: French training with Austrians - drastic increase
3 - Brits training with Austrians - drastic increase
4 - Brits training with French - drastic increase
5 - Americans training with Brits - small increase
6 - Americans training with Filipino territories - Drastic inc
7 - Americans training with Aussies - Drastic increase


Just some thoughts. I am sure there are a lot more training excercises that could or should pose some increases tensions but its kinda late.

 

[hkrommel]

I was amazed to read recently that the USSR actually allowed the Germans to hold military exercises INSIDE Russia before the war as a way to circumvent the Versailles Treaty restrictions on German military activity. It makes you wonder what Stalin was thinking... I don't suppose there will be a way to copy this very unusual occurence in the game.. unless it could be modded it as a decision early on...

One of the German national foci is "Treaty with USSR" which speeds up their research into things like tanks, simulating that relationship. Remember that during the 1930s the USSR and Germany were united in that they were largely ostracized by Europe. Italy was even part of an alliance against Germany for a long time (Stresa Front). This isolation led to cordial relations between them.

It depends on who and where you send said troops to train. If you are are playing the US and you do joint training ops with the Canadians it should have no impact what so ever on world tension with any axis powers. If however you are playing the Germans and you do joint training ops with ANYBODY it should effect world tension due to the history involved. Also after that German operation occurs, Most Allied training ops should trigger some incremental increases in tension. In my opinion those examples would be:

1: Russians training with Poles - sizable increase
2: French training with Austrians - drastic increase
3 - Brits training with Austrians - drastic increase
4 - Brits training with French - drastic increase
5 - Americans training with Brits - small increase
6 - Americans training with Filipino territories - Drastic inc
7 - Americans training with Aussies - Drastic increase


Just some thoughts. I am sure there are a lot more training excercises that could or should pose some increases tensions but its kinda late.

I don't think joint training ops are an option (though it would be interesting to introduce a mechanic whereby you perform better alongside allies if you train with them). However, I'm just referring to training along borders. Obviously allies should be able to train along each others' borders, but neutral nations should only be able to do so while decreasing relations.

 

[cacti]

whoa it's really late. I read trading as training lol. But yeah I would love to see a post release mod that would allow those joint training ops between allied nations, but that would have to completely overhaul several game mechanics.

 

[Lifthrasil]

I don't think that this would add much to the game, honestly.
Training near the border IRL is done so the troops know accustom to fight in that terrain. Since it doesn't matter in which terrain you train IN GAME, training near the border does not give you a bonus. If you then punish the player for training near the border, you create a "risk but no reward" mechanic, which causes the player to just train his troops more inland and then shift the men back to the border when trained (increasing micro).

I could however understand a damage in relations to Poland, if Germany stations more units then usual at the border. So you would earn more trade, but lose relations. Of course the trade gain trhough threat has to overcompensate the trade loss through lower relations in order to make this worthwhile. Maybe a nation feels threatened if you have x% more troops near the borders then they do?

 

[hkrommel]

I don't think that this would add much to the game, honestly.
Training near the border IRL is done so the troops know accustom to fight in that terrain. Since it doesn't matter in which terrain you train IN GAME, training near the border does not give you a bonus. If you then punish the player for training near the border, you create a "risk but no reward" mechanic, which causes the player to just train his troops more inland and then shift the men back to the border when trained (increasing micro).

I could however understand a damage in relations to Poland, if Germany stations more units then usual at the border. So you would earn more trade, but lose relations. Of course the trade gain trhough threat has to overcompensate the trade loss through lower relations in order to make this worthwhile. Maybe a nation feels threatened if you have x% more troops near the borders then they do?

I just think there's a qualitative difference between having people standing along the border (not literally, you know what I mean), and people training for war right next to your border. They are practicing warfare, and since they're on your border they're likely practicing against you. IRL NATO holding exercises in Poland is a show of strength, telling Russia to back off, so I think where you hold large-scale practice maneuvers should matter to some extent.

Besides, I don't think that it's unnecessary micro, because if I'm playing in sandbox mode I don't want my troops caught in a training exercise by an invading army. I'll pull troops off the line for practice maneuvers and have the troops on the border ready.

 

[Lifthrasil]

I just think there's a qualitative difference between having people standing along the border (not literally, you know what I mean), and people training for war right next to your border. They are practicing warfare, and since they're on your border they're likely practicing against you. IRL NATO holding exercises in Poland is a show of strength, telling Russia to back off, so I think where you hold large-scale practice maneuvers should matter to some extent.

Besides, I don't think that it's unnecessary micro, because if I'm playing in sandbox mode I don't want my troops caught in a training exercise by an invading army. I'll pull troops off the line for practice maneuvers and have the troops on the border ready.

I know what you mean, but the game does not depict this level of realism. If you punish the player for training near the border, he just won't do it. Because there is NO reward in it. Unlike in real life, where training near the border means training in terrair similar to the other countrys terrain.

And apart from the bit higher attrition, I doubt that there is a disadvantage IN GAME by getting caught in a training exercise. Unless training also lowers ORG, it doesn't matter if your troops are doing push ups while being attacked.

 

[safe-keeper]

This would just add to micro, in my eyes. Having to select troops, move them all one province back, have them train, and then put them back would become tiresome quickly. No thanks.