TRAIN+SHIFT does not work properly for NAVAL

[Poopfaust]

I hate the Naval Mechanic, but I could not help myself and I am playing Britain. There is no question the TRAIN+SHIFT does not work for Naval (at least for England in a non-modded game, Regular difficulty, Single Player).

(1) When I use it on Land units the Org does not go down for the Fully Trained units (Level 3 Regular), which makes sense. When used on Naval, the entire formation loses Org even if just 1 boat is being trained in a 100 unit formation!

(2) I also assumed the consumption of Fuel and Equipment was limited to just the units trained when using TRAIN+SHIFT. I am unsure for Land and Air, but I am sure that for Naval, same thing, it burns Fuels for the entire formation even if one boat is being trained!

(3) Summary: (a) there is never a time when you do not want to use TRAIN+SHIFT, so just let the game default to that. No need to hit a SHIFT key. (b) when using TRAIN+SHIFT, have it only use Equipment and Fuel for the individual units being trained. Else it can lead you to micro-manage the shuffling of units.., etc.., to avoid buring Fuel.., an unnecessary pain in the ass. Correction, this is mega-mega-mega non-value-added pain in the ass.

 

[BeauNiddle]

If you use train+shift for naval units the whole task force puts to sea however only the ships being trained use the increased fuel for training/combat. The other ships just use normal sailing fuel. I also think the chance of training mishap / damage is only rolled for the training ships, not sure about that tho.

But yeah it's much easier just to have a training task force and manually cycle stuff back to your reserves once trained. On the plus side you can nearly always find a use for spare naval xp so having units go past max training is less of an issue.

The reserve mechanic seems to be reasonably smart about taking trained ships. I'm not entirely sure since I rarely have enough spare ships to be certain.

 

[xtfoster]

(3) Summary: (a) there is never a time when you do not want to use TRAIN+SHIFT, so just let the game default to that. No need to hit a SHIFT key. (b) when using TRAIN+SHIFT, have it only use Equipment and Fuel for the individual units being trained. Else it can lead you to micro-manage the shuffling of units.., etc.., to avoid buring Fuel.., an unnecessary pain in the ass. Correction, this is mega-mega-mega non-value-added pain in the ass.

I disagree with you here. Once I get my units fully trained, and my fuel stockpiles back to full, I typically have at least one unit on constant training to generate the XP I need to modify ships, planes, tanks, and division templates. For the army it is typically a force with infantry only (i.e, no support equipment, artillery, etc.), naval is usually Submarines (quick to repair), and for the air force it doesn't really matter since I don't notice extremely high attrition from training.

 

[bitmode]

I also think the chance of training mishap / damage is only rolled for the training ships, not sure about that tho.

The attrition from training does not depend on the number of ships in the task force (bug report).

 

[Mousetick]

The attrition from training does not depend on the number of ships in the task force (bug report).

I think BeauNiddle also meant that attrition from training only applies to in-training ships when shift-training a task force containing a mix of fully trained and in-training ships. So taking your clarification into account, we could rephrase BeauNiddle's comment as:

When shift-training a TF, the rate of training attrition is only applied to the training ships.

Which would imply that fully trained ships in a shift-trained TF can't receive damage from training attrition, while other ships in the same TF are still being trained. That seems to be the case from casual observation, but like BeauNiddle, I'm not sure.

Is this accurate?

 

[Poopfaust]

The problem is NOT THE ATTRITION!! The problem is the entire Fleet burns LOTS of FUEL and the entire fleet becomes Disorg.

Because you can avoid this by mico-ing the individual ships between fleets in Port and fleets training, why not just have the SHIFT-TRAIN affect ONLY the ships that need Training. Forget the realism, this is micro-hell. And, why even have a TRAIN button, have it always be SHIFT-TRAIN.

Xtforster, what is it you disagree with me on? You are just rambling on about something.

 

[Poopfaust]

Think of it like this, you want newly built Destroyers to go to your big Main Fleet (has BBs and CVs). You cannot assign them to go directly to this fleet, because if you want to train them, you need to put them into a "temporary small fleet" that you can train them to prevent you from burning TONS of Fuel from the Main Fleet. Then when you find out they are Trained, you need to find the Main Fleet and Merge them.., Jeezus Christ!!

If the SHIFT+TRAIN worked the way it should, you could have the Main Fleet on SHIFT+TRAIN so those new DD (or whatever ship) can go directly to the Main Fleet and you do the other 100's of things you need to do to run an Empire (England for example).

Again, forget the realism, just give us a break on this tedious micro.

PS - Man, I hate the Naval component since MTG. I must keep doing just Russia and Germany and France (Kaiserreich).., this is madness.

 

[bitmode]

I think BeauNiddle also meant that attrition from training only applies to in-training ships when shift-training a task force containing a mix of fully trained and in-training ships. So taking your clarification into account, we could rephrase BeauNiddle's comment as:

When shift-training a TF, the rate of training attrition is only applied to the training ships.

Which would imply that fully trained ships in a shift-trained TF can't receive damage from training attrition, while other ships in the same TF are still being trained. That seems to be the case from casual observation, but like BeauNiddle, I'm not sure.

Is this accurate?

Indeed, @BeauNiddle was correct. I didn't know the trained ships are excluded from accidents when shift-training.

Xtforster, what is it you disagree with me on? You are just rambling on about something.

You said:

there is never a time when you do not want to use TRAIN+SHIFT,

and they gave an example of using training without shift - to generate naval XP. I think there is still a strong argument to make shift-training the default as it is desired in most cases.

 

[Simon_9732495]

This thread misses the fact that a task force on SHIFT+training loses A LOT LESS FUEL than a task force on normal training.

Evidence:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-patch-update-iv.1369935/page-7#post-26449782

State of the game now is that a task force stays together at training and is not splitting of the ships for training. That means all go out to the sea together, all deorg and all lose some fuel. (The ones not training a lot less than the ones training.)
Yes, this could be changed to ships splitting off and training alone (like they repair alone). I don't know if the reasoning behind this is realism or other reasons.

BUT I don't agree with the heavy ranting in this thread.
Assign your new ships to the reserve and let the reserve train with shift+training. Every 3-6 month (or more often if you like) you look to the reserve and distribute the trained ships to the desired task forces.
It's really not THAT much of a deal.

 

[BeauNiddle]

The problem is NOT THE ATTRITION!! The problem is the entire Fleet burns LOTS of FUEL and the entire fleet becomes Disorg.

Because you can avoid this by mico-ing the individual ships between fleets in Port and fleets training, why not just have the SHIFT-TRAIN affect ONLY the ships that need Training. Forget the realism, this is micro-hell.

The problem is a task force is a task force. If they don't stay together then where do they train? Is it outside the port they deploy in, is it the closest sea zone they reach, is it the sea zone the task force was in when the ship deployed? Do they move and train every time the rest of the task force moves? If combat occurs what position penalties should training ships have? spotting penalties, etc?

While I agree it's not an optimal system your concept raises too many questions to be preferred.

Swapping ships between task forces is so easy I don't feel the current system is too burdensome. And if I happen to forget to check and make changes because I'm busy it's rarely critical and any extra naval xp can always be useful.

And, why even have a TRAIN button, have it always be SHIFT-TRAIN.

Because training once past max gives you xp. Sometimes you want ships / planes / divisions constantly training to get you the xp you need. For backwards compatibility reasons the training button does what it always used to do and the new mode is a special action under that (and actually I agree it should be that way round)

 

[BeauNiddle]

After thinking about it some more a nice solution would be if task forces requested better ships from the reserves.

E.g. a task force with 1936 crab destroyers will automatically request any 1940+ crab destroyers if they became available.

That way you could auto deploy ships to your training fleet and then you only need to manually move them to reserves once and they will get requested by the appropriate fleets as needed. Cuts down on the micro and gives better fleets.

But does also open up the "what is defined as better?" can of worms!

 

[Zauberelefant]

After thinking about it some more a nice solution would be if task forces requested better ships from the reserves.

E.g. a task force with 1936 crab destroyers will automatically request any 1940+ crab destroyers if they became available.

That way you could auto deploy ships to your training fleet and then you only need to manually move them to reserves once and they will get requested by the appropriate fleets as needed. Cuts down on the micro and gives better fleets.

But does also open up the "what is defined as better?" can of worms!

This is implemented if you defined the old types as obsolete in the construction UI. Which should be automatically the case for different hull years.