Traditions and Ascension.

[Kinkness]

Before I get into it. I really love the fact that Traditions and Ascension is in the game now. I do think it brings a great new level to Stellaris. I'm really enjoying it.

However.

My Thoughts:

Despite the fact I'm "this is great!" A part of me also feels "It missed what it was intending to do". Not entirely a miss, but more of a graze. It hit it's mark, but.. Didn't really hit the intended bulls eye.

I see Traditions as just that.. Traditions. This is the direction my people took during its space age, and future age expansion and growth. This is how my people evolved from pre space age, into the space age, and beyond. I'm a space faring, tree hugging, peaceful down to earth spiritualistic nation that Ghandi would be proud of. So why then, do I have the same traditions as the Hive Minded, Borg loving, kill everything, and or assimilate them into our galaxy conquering militaristic and war loving species next door?

It makes the Traditions just another tech tree that makes nothing special in the end.

Now you can argue "Ah! But it's the Ascensions my friend that make it unique!" And yes, that's where the graze part comes in. They hit a small portion of it.. In very very late game. But what about early and mid, and early late game? Nothing special, nothing new. Nothing to make "Me" different from "Them".

In the end, to get to my end goal, I'm forced to grab everything anyway. So is everyone else to reach my end goal. In the end the only REAL difference between "me" and "them" is the final Ascension perk.

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My Suggestions:

I don't think the Traditions need to be drastically changed, just more added to them.

I think every Tradition core; Expansion, Supremecy, Diplomacy, etc. Should have 2-3 different paths to take, depending on your style of play, and what will make your species different. Being able to see other factions traditions and even getting a small diplomacy boost or even negative modifier for similar traditions will really help build up the Traditions into making you unique, as well as making friends or enemies who have grown in similar paths or different paths. Once you choose a path, you cannot change it, and the other path is locked out.

Example:
(Please note, these are just examples of how they can be different in comparison. THese are not suggestions for exact numbers, or situations.)

Diplomacy Tree:

War-like path: +1 to max Rivalries, Ship cost reduced by 1% per Rivalry, Rivalry diplomacy boost for nations who rival the same nation as you, War Demand cost decreased by 10%, Influance cost on admirals reduced by 2% per rivalry.

Peaceful Path: Similar to what you have now, except bonus's as well to influance cost for defensive pacts are 10% less, etc.

Note: Both war like and peaceful paths have a form federation option.

Exploration Tree:

War like path: Ships gain 25% bonus damage to alien life(crystals, organics, etc), Gain a bonus reduction cost to war demands for 10 years for newly discovered species, Reduced 50% reduced cost in minerals of building Outposts for 1 year in each newly explored system, each engineering scanned by a science ship is added to your research, reduced cost of engineering stations by 25%

Peaceful Path: New Contact negative modifier for new species is reduced by 50%, When first contacting a new species they will not close borders to you if they otherwise would for 5 years. (Everything else is pretty much the same)

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Now, Supremecy, and Domination are two I think should be slightly changed in terms of wording and focus.

Supremecy changed to Army, and Dominatoin changed to Fleets. This way you can have a war-like and Peaceful path for both.

For these, the war like would stay roughly the same, with a little more shift to offensive power, while peaceful focuses more on defense, and keeping your borders safe, a few suggestions:

Army:

War-like: Assault army cost reduced by 10%, Assault Armies gain 10% damage, Cost of modifiers on assault armies reduced by 35%, When Assault armies are defending a captured planet their morale defense is boosted by 25%.

Peaceful: Defense armies gain 10% defense and HP, When a captured planet is retaken in your borders, garrisoned armies gain a bonus 50% to defense for a period of time, Planetary Shield buildings now remove the affect of full bombardment armies will regain hp and strength back regardless and bulidings won't be fully disabled, but will have a 50% reduction output even if the planets defense rating is 0.

Fleets:

war like: Fleet Costs reduced by 10%, Admirals now start with a bonus 10% fire rate, Upgrading space ports cost is reduced by 25%, Fleet capacity increased by 10%

Peaceful: Fleet build time and cost reduced by 20% but max fleet size is reduced by 20%, Fleet FTL cool down is decreased by 15%, Defense structures(All levels including Fortress) Defense is boosted by 150% and weapons boosted by 200%, Defense Structures AOE build limitation is reduced by 50%, Fortress's can now repair fleets like shipyards.

(The Idea behind peaceful fleets, is that you're oging to be playing defensively, and defense is something that's seriously lacking in Stellaris. Especially in terms of defense structures that get steam rolled rather easily as is. This allows you to build up your defense through structures, and fortress's, making them your primary fleet, while your main fleet is more of a hit n run, and support as a truly peaceful civilization would use it as.)

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Edit: Sorry I forgot the second section to my novel >.<;

Part 2: To little too late Ascensions.

This is a problem I think many people are seeing, as well as myself, and I don't even focus entirely on Unity. Basically, by the time you get Ringworlds, mega strcutres, etc. You don't need them... At all. They end up being a gimmick. The final 3 Ascension paths also come very late and you don't feel as though you're really playing through the game with them, their more, yay I beat the game, NOW I can finally go down that 1 Ascension path!

My suggestion is to start opening up what makes your now unique civilization through the Traditions, even more Unique, by opening up the Mind over Matter, Robotics, etc. paths by mid game. As in, you've fully researched 3-4 Tradition tree's, now you can start specializing into these unique paths. (If you want). Mega structures should come much earlier as well. They should be a choice. Do I have the resources, or do I want to spend the resources on this megastructure? Can I? Those should be the questions I'm asking myself.

Instead of them being helpful, or a big decision to make mid game, it's late game, and I'm thinking:

"Well, I don't need the ringworld, got more than enough pops as is, and doing 100% fine. I'm rolling in Energy, with far more than I can spend.. So I don't need the Dyson Sphere. I'm stomping everyone scientifically, so don't need the science nexus either... Man, I own, or are friends with over half the galaxy, so I don't need the Sentry Array either.... Ah well lets wrap this up, finish off the last few species and win the game."


These mega structures really should come mid game at least, where they will be a huge point in power flow, and boosting your civilization in the direction you want. A science focused faction building the nexus, or a diplomatic one building the sentry mid game is a huge undertaking, but huge payout, it makes it rewarding and worthwhile.. Unlike now..

 

[legionof1]

Traditions do feel kinda lackluster and its more about sequencing correctly for your game plan the dramatically altering game-play. There is expectation that you will acquire the majority of the traditions during play. They migrated a good deal of what used to be tech based bonuses to certain aspects of game-play to traditions. Border spread being the most obvious. Border range was curtailed to the point that the 20% tradition bonus feels obligatory and to a lesser degree the outpost cost reductions.

 

[Kinkness]

Traditions do feel kinda lackluster and its more about sequencing correctly for your game plan the dramatically altering game-play. There is expectation that you will acquire the majority of the traditions during play. They migrated a good deal of what used to be tech based bonuses to certain aspects of game-play to traditions. Border spread being the most obvious. Border range was curtailed to the point that the 20% tradition bonus feels obligatory and to a lesser degree the outpost cost reductions.

Pretty much, which is fine imo, but.. just needs more you know?

 

[thekaje]

I think more is better, as well, but it seems to me that people are wrong in thinking you shouldn't "ultimately" get all traditions. The whole idea of ascension (I think) is that you are inherently superior to what came before.

I don't think there should be a "warlike" and "peaceful" path within traditions. In fact, I think that would be awful. I like the idea of finishing out a tree in order to get an ascension perk, as it makes your choices more interesting (should I finish out this tree or go for the 20% border pop of a new tree...?)

As you seem to say, your tradition sequencing makes your civ unique for the early and mid-game. In this phase, you are still distinctive, and you choose the traditions appropriate for your specific race and strategy. Once you start "ascending," you must get all the other tradition trees because you are essentially becoming better than the old civilizations in every conceivable way. You are wrong to focus only on the final form, as the game is about the journey, not the destination. However, even at the destination (as you say), you are distinctive in terms of which path you chose.

Every ascension path includes all traditions because each represents a state that transcends and is superior to the old civilization types.

 

[Kinkness]

I think more is better, as well, but it seems to me that people are wrong in thinking you shouldn't "ultimately" get all traditions. The whole idea of ascension (I think) is that you are inherently superior to what came before.

I don't think there should be a "warlike" and "peaceful" path within traditions. In fact, I think that would be awful. I like the idea of finishing out a tree in order to get an ascension perk, as it makes your choices more interesting (should I finish out this tree or go for the 20% border pop of a new tree...?)

As you seem to say, your tradition sequencing makes your civ unique for the early and mid-game. In this phase, you are still distinctive, and you choose the traditions appropriate for your specific race and strategy. Once you start "ascending," you must get all the other tradition trees because you are essentially becoming better than the old civilizations in every conceivable way. You are wrong to focus only on the final form, as the game is about the journey, not the destination. However, even at the destination (as you say), you are distinctive in terms of which path you chose.

Every ascension path includes all traditions because each represents a state that transcends and is superior to the old civilization types.

You are confusing "More" with "Better". A peaceful civilization focused on building tall can ascend to a much higher level, and consciousness, without delving at all into supremacy, and iron fisting. Or should... In Stellaris however you are forced to take supremecy, Domination, and Expansion. How does that factor at all into my play style? One thing this game is is "Role playing your civilization" It has RP elements all over, and making your faction your faction, as the latest dlc shows paradox does want. So why then is my peaceful, tall empire forced to take Expansion, Supremecy, and Domination at all to be "Ascended".

The confusion you have, or at least from what I gathered from your explanation is that there's only 1 path to "Ascended" You can be "ascended" in many different ways, peacefully, war mongeringly, spiritually, technologically, etc... In Stellaris you even have 3 main paths, yet... The traditions don't play nicely at all with them in terms of pathing.

As you said, each section should be "Ascending" better than the old civilization, I'm a peaceful civilization that just ascended supremecy in a peaceful way, while my neighbor ascended better than before in a war like way. Both "conquered" and "enhanced" themselves better than before, through supremecy but in different ways that make sense for that civilization.

That was my goal.

 

[thekaje]

I think you're just getting confused by labels. If your peaceful tall empire wants to ascend, it will naturally become better than other empires at everything. This means it transcends the old forms of specialization. Ignore the names of the tradition trees at that point -- your empire is just becoming better than others in every single respect.

Anyway, solid "no" from me on splitting tradition trees into "warlike" and "peaceful" paths.

 

[Kinkness]

I think you're just getting confused by labels. If your peaceful tall empire wants to ascend, it will naturally become better than other empires at everything. This means it transcends the old forms of specialization. Ignore the names of the tradition trees at that point -- your empire is just becoming better than others in every single respect.

Anyway, solid "no" from me on splitting tradition trees into "warlike" and "peaceful" paths.

"Better at everything" doesn't directly go into "Ascended".

Take the Borg from Star Trek for instance as an example. Technically you could argue they were an ascended species, they were in all respects, "Better at everything" Their tech, their ships, their society didn't have any internal conflicts, yada yada yada. So by your standards they were an "Ascended" race.

however, diplomatically they were extremely sub par to everyone else. Politically as well, and their being to rationalize, and think outside of their "collective" was null and void. So by your own standards again, they were not ascended then.

You contradict yourself.

Just because you're "ascended" doesn't mean you're "best at everything" That's a flawed logic.

 

[thekaje]

lol, it has nothing to do with logic. I think the problem may lie with your random example of the Borg, who by their obvious flaws (i.e. NOT being better at everything) were by definition not "ascended" in Stellaris terms

 

[Janx14]

Except asension doesn't mean you're best at everything as you cant get all ascension perks.

It means your culture apparently has all traditions. It makes you a fiddler on the roof.

 

[thekaje]

Read the thread, man. The idea of ascension is that you're better in every respect than the OLD races -- the ones confined to traditions alone, not other ascended races.

 

[Kinkness]

Read the thread, man. The idea of ascension is that you're better in every respect than the OLD races -- the ones confined to traditions alone, not other ascended races.

And therein lies the problem. They wrapped "Ascension" in with Traditions. From what Paradox described, "Ascension" is supposed to be like you gaining the power the Fallen Empires had before they fell. Well, one problem is, that Fallen Empires all have different ethics, beliefs, and are all powerful in different ways for different reasons.

Problem is the way they did Traditions and Ascensions and how they work and relate to each other is completely wonky, contradicting, and backwards, both for what paradox said they wanted, and in the "lore" of fallen empires in and of itself. Regardless of how you look at it, it makes no sense that a peaceful hippie tree hugging "everyones my friend" civilization would remotely delve into the supremecy, and Domination Traditions. Only a true idiot would argue otherwise.

Likewise why is a civilization that wants to stay small, keep itself to a few planets, and build tall and strong going to promote any time into expansion? lol derpy derp. Makes no sense.

So that contradicts Paradox's own words that they wanted to flesh out governments, and ethics, make them both more RP friendly, and feel less similar to each other. Then they introduce a mechanic where everyone has to pick THE SAME THING regardless of who you are, or who you are playing as. Which just goes right back into the complaint about governments, and empires all feeling the same in the end back in 1.0.. Herpy derp.
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It would of made far more sense to me, to choose a path like Cybernetics, Psionics, what have you, earlier on, and have that effect your Traditions, and you not being able to choose all the traditions, making your empire unique and different, and least more different. Make your "focus" one of the 3 new paths, affect your options for traditoins, and additional ascensions, So even two psionic focused empires may not be exactly the same, but the flow of how your faction became psionic, and their path to enlightenment at least makes somewhat sense.

Right now its "fill in all the boxes, no no doesn't matter what type of ethics, government, or who you are, none of that matters, fill in all the boxes, then choose whatever "path" you want, and you'll instantly get it. DOn't worry no real effort, or choices required. Yup that's right, just fill in all the boxes, easy as that!"

Love knowing my Traditions and my "path" to enlightment is exactly the same as my polar opposite opponent next door... Because that really makes my civiilization feel special and unique doesn't it?

 

[Praefectus]

I agree with the topic starter.
I was a bit disappointed myself with the tradition system. Specifically that I am expected to take all the trees. I think it really hurts the role playing aspect of the game which is arguably the best thing about Stellaris.
I think they should expand all the trees, make later bonuses really powerful but much more expensive. That way the player would have to choose between being mediocre at everything or really good in specific areas.

 

[Tindalosihound]

A option I would quite like to see would be to increase the number of tradition paths, while still only allowing each empire to take seven in total.

When you adopt a tradition path, you would choose from those available, much as you do with Ascension Perks.

This would enable pacifist empires to avoid the Domination and Supremacy paths if they feel it does not fit them, and likewise more militarist empires could ignore Diplomacy.

Other tradition trees could include:
Purity (which was one for some of development)
Faith (moving temples from Spiritualism)
Protection (a more defensive minded military path)

 

[thekaje]

A option I would quite like to see would be to increase the number of tradition paths, while still only allowing each empire to take seven in total.

When you adopt a tradition path, you would choose from those available, much as you do with Ascension Perks.

This would enable pacifist empires to avoid the Domination and Supremacy paths if they feel it does not fit them, and likewise more militarist empires could ignore Diplomacy.

Other tradition trees could include:
Purity (which was one for some of development)
Faith (moving temples from Spiritualism)
Protection (a more defensive minded military path)

This is a good idea imo, but probably real hard to balance.