Trading technology

[Grosshaus]

Last night when playing Japan in EU2 after reading Clavell's Gai-Jin, it came to me that there is something missing from the EU2 engine. Something that also is next to impossible to implement without major changes, so it might be better to propose this to Victoria: trading technology.

In the book different European powers tried to influence the possibility of a Japanese civil war by offering various deals. One offered cannons, one modern steamships, one monetary system, one promised to help build factories etc. Since Vic seems to get a technology tree, it would be possible to include technologies in treaties.

Giving a backward nation some modernization in exchange of an alliance sounds like a very tempting bargain. After all only sending money or perhaps some modern troops and aid in a war doesn't that much help the less-fortunate nation that much in the long run. And since you have already researched the tech, it doesn't cost you that much to get a powerfull regional ally.

Japan isn't the only place in the world at the time where trading technology was important. Also Russia wanted to modernize fast, especially after the Crimean war, and since their factories and railways were built with French assistance and capital it was logical for them to ally with the French further. Of course loans and trading were also involved, not only teaching, but one way to represent the modernization would be the French giving the technologies of railroads and factories, perhaps even telegraphs. Several European nations and USA made different deals with several South-American nations to help them develop their railroads, mining, farming and telegraphs. Naturally those deals were also linked to financial issues, but did in effect give some of the nations a lot of knowledge to, for instance, further develop their economy with the skills gained.

HoI had the option to give away tech, but I found it logical that the only gain of giving was that your ally got stronger. If I helped modernize the Yogoslavian army to become better than the German one to help them defend against the possible German assault, they still didn't become any more favourable towards me, which doesn't sound all that logical.

I'd like to have the chance to secure my empire by having loyal native allies in areas I can't colonize, but wouldn't like my enemies to go there either. India, Japan and China are obvious examples, but also some native tribes in Africa could have risen to buffer European influence.

 

[unmerged(18023)]

Thats a good idea, and I certainly hope we'll be able to provide tech help to friendly nations, allies and vassals.

 

[Grosshaus]

Not just friendly nations, but those that we want to be our friends. And with an effect of them actually becoming more friendly towards us.

 

[unmerged(18023)]

Well then along side this I would like to see a form of direct cash subsidies, in place of the loans and stuff we've got in EU2.

 

[unmerged(5067)]

I think the technologies on their own aren't very useful; what was useful was either the training of experts, engineers, etc, and the sale/gift of factories, material, weapons.

Both these should be simulated. The first, well I guess you can train your workforce, so a European power could train your workforce for money/alliance. Second: I hope you can trade weapons, factories,etc, either for cash or for 'friendship'.

I agree as well with the cash subsidies. But this should rather be used to support one country vs another, ie support the South in the US Civil War.

 

[unmerged(18249)]

Originally posted by Grosshaus
Also Russia wanted to modernize fast, especially after the Crimean war, and since their factories and railways were built with French assistance and capital it was logical for them to ally with the French further.

1834 Czar Niklas I. appointed Professor Franz Anton Ritter von Gerstner to build the first Railways in Russia. The first rails were built from Petersburg to Moscow, and from Petersburtg to Zarskoje-Selo. Gerstner was a German from Bohemia (Sudetenland).

 

[Moltke]

I would like to be able to TAKE technology as well as to give it. Any chance of industrial espionage?

 

[Winkelried]

Originally posted by Moltke
I would like to be able to TAKE technology as well as to give it. Any chance of industrial espionage?

Like CivII? I hope not.

 

[Grosshaus]

Originally posted by Samourai Steven
I think the technologies on their own aren't very useful; what was useful was either the training of experts, engineers, etc, and the sale/gift of factories, material, weapons.

Both these should be simulated. The first, well I guess you can train your workforce, so a European power could train your workforce for money/alliance. Second: I hope you can trade weapons, factories,etc, either for cash or for 'friendship'.

But the combined effect of training traincrews and engineers and sending experts to help in building the railways, perhaps also in making the materials necessary, and giving the blueprints of the innovations themselves could be represented by giving the technology of railways. After all researching a technology isn't only about knowing the theory of it, it's also enabling it's exploitation. At least when thinking of technologies Civ3-wise: when you know mobile warfare, you can build armor. So knowing that tech you have people who know how to build and operate armor.

 

[Killerjes]

Originally posted by Samourai Steven
I think the technologies on their own aren't very useful; what was useful was either the training of experts, engineers, etc, and the sale/gift of factories, material, weapons.

Both these should be simulated. The first, well I guess you can train your workforce, so a European power could train your workforce for money/alliance. Second: I hope you can trade weapons, factories,etc, either for cash or for 'friendship'.

The question is how detailed the training of the work forces is simulated.
If not too detalied the trading of the Techs themselves will be a perfect "substitute" for the more complex reality you sketch.

I like this idea Grosshaus!
Great alternative to giving cash.

 

[arstal]

One way of doing this, maybe allow money given as a gift to go towards research?

 

[unmerged(5067)]

Or if you 'give' a technology, you have to pay for it (or make the other pay for it). It's not just duplicating, it means training people and sending equipment.

 

[Morpheus506]

That sounds like a good idea. I hope that espionage is possible as well. That would be cool.

 

[Zagys]

I don't much like the sound of this. I think the technological growth of countries in EU 2 is alot more realistic than it is in HoI or Civ II.

If it is possible to give technology in Victoria, it should come at great cost.

 

[unmerged(5261)]

Is it there any example of espionage during the period?

 

[Irsich]

Originally posted by Zagys
I don't much like the sound of this. I think the technological growth of countries in EU 2 is alot more realistic than it is in HoI or Civ II.

If it is possible to give technology in Victoria, it should come at great cost.

I agree with you. Tech have to be very expensive to give. so if it to came you would have to lost a good amount of money/ic or whatever in the trade.

About spy: I don't think they can get you a whole technology at the time. May be it would just help a bit your research. I don't think technology stealing to be that much important for Victoria.

 

[Grosshaus]

Nations like Japan and Russia did modernize a lot faster than they could have on their own, so there was something else going on than just EU2 neighbour bonus. Part of it was simply purchase of professional service, but, especially in the case of Japan, duplicating all kinds of Western products. Pirate copies, one might add. I've seen a Japanese "Ford" T-Model, for instance. A kind of espionage?

 

[Irsich]

Originally posted by Grosshaus
Nations like Japan and Russia did modernize a lot faster than they could have on their own, so there was something else going on than just EU2 neighbour bonus. Part of it was simply purchase of professional service, but, especially in the case of Japan, duplicating all kinds of Western products. Pirate copies, one might add. I've seen a Japanese "Ford" T-Model, for instance. A kind of espionage?

To buy technology is different than to give it. The difference is in who paid. Even if the tech cost should be reduce compared to the self research cost, it have to be high enought to reflect the time and ressource needed to be able to use it.

 

[unmerged(11633)]

I wonder if stealing tech will be in. To a reasonable degree of course. But things like the patents for the production of steel were not often respected.