Trading System is messed up...

[unmerged(11088)]

I have been palying the game for the last day and a half. I am having some problems with the trade system, its explaination was poor.
I have experinced a few crashes, I have been using auto save.
The political model seems a bit limited. you don't seem to have many options in interacting with other countries. I played the US for 3 years and Canada, and the UK never granted me military access. Making cabint changes is pretty hard.
Overall not a bad game if pardox keeps up with the patches.

 

[unmerged(9381)]

Originally posted by Alexander Seil
Well, think about it. Oil and rubber are strategic resources that major powers were at each others' throats to get. Whole reason for Japan to initiate a war with US was that its' oil was cut off and new source must have been found immediately. In the game, however, Japan can readily buy rubber and oil for coal and iron from China in 1941. Don't you think it kind of kills the idea of seizing Indonesia? Why bother? You can buy it all.

Wow,

This is true? Shezzz perhaps I should be worried about this now too. Damit. Damit.

-Jason

 

[unmerged(994)]

Well, I'm still waiting to get my hands on the game, but I figured out how the WM works and it seems fine.
The whole point is that you actually give your resources BEFORE getting something. This creates a "pool" (not an unlimited one) of available goods and, provided the bid you offered is acceptable, you get what you need. This works with a stock exchange logic and probably manages quite well the setting of price and availability of the basic commodities.
For the objections risen, I would answer (just out of the data I read):
1) Germany actually has a BIG resource problem, at least until manages to get advanced conversion techs. Just consider the IC production: to get 300 IC working (this means less than complete effectiveness), she needs 600 coal (about half of dayly production) and 150 rubber (this means other 450 coal, exchanged at a 3:1 ratio). The only abundant resource, coal, is thus almost completely expended for keeping the industry running at a decent level in PEACETIME. Oh, and we didn't take into account the oil and that little steel shortage. Come on, it is apparent that the large stockpiles are the result of a very limited production.
2) Japan has an even larger resource problem, since it has nothing to give for the needed materials - notr even the German coal. So, conquest is imperative in any way.
3) The convoy system is VITAL, for UK as well as for Japan, since the resources produced overseas have to be brought back home, to use or to trade them. And troops overseas must be suppllied from the motherland, as the stockpiles outside the home provinces are limited. Subs can really do something, I guess.
4) USA has a great economic power, even greater than IRL. I mean, they produce so much oil that they can get all the rubber they need simply converting it. And they can put all the excess coal they have (which is about 400 with the industry at full capacity) on the market and trad it with rubber at 4:1, just to take 100 units off the pool and hamper Germany quite a lot.

For me, it seems to work fine (but I repeat, I'm just guessing).

 

[unmerged(3352)]

Originally posted by Loewefuchs

Germany actually has a BIG resource problem, at least until manages to get advanced conversion techs. Just consider the IC production: to get 300 IC working (this means less than complete effectiveness), she needs 600 coal (about half of dayly production) and 150 rubber (this means other 450 coal, exchanged at a 3:1 ratio). The only abundant resource, coal, is thus almost completely expended for keeping the industry running at a decent level in PEACETIME. Oh, and we didn't take into account the oil and that little steel shortage. Come on, it is apparent that the large stockpiles are the result of a very limited production.

Well, not really. At least I havent seen this resource problem.

I trade rubber for coal at a 1-3 ratio from 1936, then I figured I would probably need some oil too, so I traded oil for coal at the same ratio. By 1938 my coal was maxed out at 99999, I had something like 40000 oil and 40000 rubber.

By then IC was up to 400-something, and all my stocks were still rising in 1939 when war broke out and I quit playing due to the brittish bomber bug. What you fail to take into consideration in your example is that Germany get other sources for coal and other resources when they annex Austria, Czheckoslovakia and Poland.

It is extremely easy to build up a rediculous surplus of oil and rubber. This surplus is kept in Berlin, and strategic bombardment cannot touch those resources, even if they level Berlin.

When war breaks out, you have enough coal resources to trade 5-1 or higher for rubber and oil.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Though I didn't have as easy of a time as that, it was nearly so. By the time I got around to Poland in 1939 I had 20,000 coal, 30,000 steel, 8,000 rubber (slowly decreasing however) and about 30,000 oil. I was slowly increasing with everything except rubber.

 

[unmerged(994)]

Sorry, Hort, but did you actually use the IC?
I know I abstracted from the annexation of Czech, Austria and Poland, but I also didn't consider the oil consumption. Anyway, I simply take into account the maths: if you USE 300 IC throughout 1936 and 1937 (abstraction made of annexation whatever, ok?), you need 1110 Coal (600 base + 450 for 150 rubber + 60 for 20 steel), and stockpile 0 of rubber, oil and steel (apart the 15 oil of internal production). So, you just stockpile 160 coal; now, it's true that in two years 160 coal a day means more than 99999, but that's all you can have, and Germany IS one of the primay coal producers in the world.

 

[Jon Shafer]

But 99999 is too much to have in 2 years.

With that much you can trade for anything you need...

 

[unmerged(3352)]

Well, I dont remember the exact figures, but I do remember looking over my economy from time to time.

This is some of the things I remember.
I only puchased something like 120 rubber on the WM. I payed 3-1 for that. The remaining 30 (30-something, I think the daily need was 155 or something) was converted from my own oil (I think it is oil that is converted to rubber at 2-1 or something like that).

So that is 360 coal gone.

I put out another offer for oil on the WM, I think I bought 100 for 200 coal (or something like that, I remember that oil was cheaper than rubber though, and that there quickly builds up huge surpluses of oil, steel and coal on the world market). So for 560 coal, I get a net increase in oil and the rubber is covered. This is in 36.

In 37 I decide to build up some stockpiles. I put out another offer on the WM, this time I offer 300 coal for 100 rubber. 660 coal for 220 rubber every day. Maybe this led to my coal surplus getting smaller, I honestly dont know. I didnt notice any decrease though, because the coal was up in five digits, and I never noticed any decline. From 37, Im stockpilining both oil and rubber.

By now I have annexed Hungaria. I dont know what that did to my resource situation. But I do know that when I annex Austria and czheck, my industry has risen to 360-380 something, and I have huge stockpiles of everyting, except steel which is 2000 something. I dont remember the exact figures, but they are above 20 000 for oil and rubber, and above 60 000 for coal.

By late 39, coal is maxed out and rubber and oil are in the 30 000- 40 000-range

 

[Jon Shafer]

2 potential fixes that, IMO, would greatly improve the situation:

Reduce the amount of resources in the world by a large enough margin that the future Axis conquerors will really have to compete and sacrifice to get what they need.

Once war starts, make it extremely difficult for Axis players to find resources... Trade should be on the bottom of the list as far as getting resources.

 

[grumbold]

It wouldn't be a problem if the resources crashed just as fast. From the outside looking in it seems as if players are generally having to build half or less of the number of divisions that istorically existed to successfully prosecute their wars. In the run up to 1939 they are often building none until the very last moment. Its no surprise then that with far less strain on the economy from supporting troops and fuelling vehicles that resource rich majors have a healthy surplus while their manpower pools stay in the thousands. I would hope that in future the AI will build more, forcing the player to keep pace or die. That should see a big dent put in some of these resource mountains without having to institute a second tier of resource convoys trying to extrapolate the safest land or sea routes from moment to moment between resource provider and resource purchaser.

 

[Jon Shafer]

You bring up another biggie... if the AI simply had more divisions, it would be a lot harder to beat...

 

[bandkanon]

I am pretty cool with the world market rules. But then I puppeted Belgium and Holland and I got 99999 of everything, including rubber. Then I realized HOI has a very bad shortcoming. I believe the trade system of instantaneous resources is a mistake. After reading everyone else's thoughts on this, I believe that the WM system shuold be abolished. Resources must be made harder to get. Well, not harder, but definetely in a different way, one that is dependent upon the player's ability to transport them and the enemy's ability to hinder them. Furthermore, I think the IC system should be reevaluated and conversion to be limited, hopefully to become a manual system. The present conversion inherently makes coal the currency of the game (coal to oil to rubber) at least for Germany. Conversion should not be instantneous and only used in order to stockpile a commodity. I wish the ablity to stockpile can be done. I really don't like not having enough oil to fight a war; I want a strategic reserve of oil that cannot be converted to rubber automatically.

Like many people said, the WM makes it so that there is almost no reason to fight a war. Resource pressure exists only if your present situation causes you to not have enough of coal for conversion. A trade system must be created that:

1. Is suceptible to enemy interdiction.
2. Embargos and trade agreements can be made between the player and other countries.
3. Allies can share resources; Currently Rumania gives no oil to Germany if they are allied; The only reason to ally is to get military support.
4. Conversion is not instantaneous (although after rethinking this maybe that isn't a big deal afterall; However, conversion should be so costly as to not be very common, thus forcing the player to find resources more realistically through peaceful trade or aggressive force.

I am not trashing this game. I thik that HOI has the making of a true classic in gaming, but right now the current trade / economic system hinders the enjoyment of HOI.

 

[grumbold]

Does conversion have an IC cost or is there essentially no limit to how much you can convert for free?

 

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by grumbold
Does conversion have an IC cost or is there essentially no limit to how much you can convert for free?

The only limit is what level of conversion technology you've completed.

 

[grumbold]

Originally posted by Trip
The only limit is what level of conversion technology you've completed.

It would be interesting to see what the effects of limiting it to 10 units converted per IC spent on the effort would be. Having the knowledge to convert coal to oil shouldn't make it a cost free endeavour.

 

[Jon Shafer]

True... 10 to 1 seems a bit extreme though.

Want to convert 150 units of oil to rubber? (300 ICs) That's 15 ICs cost right there. That's a rather hefty sum there... two mediocre/1 solid tech, or an armored division.
And that's excluding if you might have to convert coal to oil first.

 

[unmerged(28)]

Re: Re: Re: IMPORTANT: Trading System is messed up...

Originally posted by Zakhal
After Pearl Harbor 1941? Maybe, *maybe* before that, but after it just sounds like a load of rubbish.

EDIT: Well USA wasnt in war with Germany right after Pearl Harbor. Germany declared war afterwards (Cant remember the date) to US so she was still neutral in war against Germany after PH which means there might be som trading.

Then you are quite miss informed. Germany bought large quantities of strategic commodities as precission drills etc etc through Swedish Bulvans.

It was quite easy to obtain commodities on the world market from the very fact that it was considered a problem for Democratic countries like the USA and Great Britain to prove acts of fraud and bulvanism. In the End they started to set a new rule instead, but that was late war.

/Greven

 

[bandkanon]

I was thinking more costly as 10 coal for 1 oil or more. Currently its 4 to 1. This will make it so that conversion is only used to create emergency oil to fight a war, but make it so that coal itself is valuable enough to be hoarded. The present system I think takes away the player's power to exercise control over his own industry. The player has no choice whether or not to convert resources.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Some sort of option to designate how much of each resource is to be converted would be very welcome.

I remember the first thing I thought was "you HAVE to be kidding me" when I discovered that everything was done automatically and you had no involvement in the process. While it's not as annoying now, it would still be nice to have some control over the process.

 

[unmerged(8780)]

Originally posted by Houdini
By the way, someone earlier in the thread asserted that the US did not immediately declare war against Germany after Pearl Harbor. That's true, but Germany took FDR off the hook by declaring war on the US just four days after Pearl.

Yup, for all practical purpoises and intents in a historical period that strecthes over 10 years, those two events happened at the same time. 4 days of possible trading hardly matters in such a situation.

Another thing is that the US was practically at war with Germany a long time before the official declaration of war. US Destroyers and planes were protecting UK convoys, resources were "borrowed" to the UK based on FDR's famous garden-hose speech and the US was busy building up the forces needed to fight the Axis on all fronts. German subs were also firing on US convoys and destroyers.

Technically the US did not refuse to trade with Germany until a very late stage, but they did require them to provide their transport which effectively meant that only the UK and France had any real chance to trade with the US. Im sure that if the germans did buy anything in the US, information about shipping routes would have been "accidentally leaked" to the UK for interception.