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grumbold

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I hate trade agreements. If I have five merchants in a CoT then someone I have no agreement with will trade me down to 4 and someone who I have an agreement with then grabs the vacancy. Mysteriously it never seems to happen the other way round. I'd be quite happy to play the Mad Russian Tzar and execute or deport merchants who dared to turn up from any country with whom relations were already -200. None of this fuss sending another fifty merchants to your own CoT to dislodge the banned ones.
 

von Murrin

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Hmmm. I guess I'm the odd man out. I don't autosend until I have more than 2 CoT's, and then just because to do it myself is a royal pain in the arse. I never sign trade agreements, but I will embargo everyone and their grandmother. Seems I'm the only one to do that.

Nathanael
 

unmerged(2218)

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Bloke who lives in a EU2less zone question.

In 2 do all contries get the oppurtunities to have a reasonable amount of merchants. In 1 only majors could get more than one a year. that made it very easy to defend a monopoly in places like Delhi and Persia as Majors tended to concentrate on their own ROTW COTs and very few countries know about the Mughal empire. I take it this doesn't work anymore? :(
 

unmerged(6325)

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Yep, now minors get many merchants too, and they can even get more if they tweak their domestic policy sliders accordingly. It's difficult to defend monopolies in EU2, even as a major.

/coralsaw
 

boehm

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Originally posted by coralsaw
Yep, now minors get many merchants too, and they can even get more if they tweak their domestic policy sliders accordingly. It's difficult to defend monopolies in EU2, even as a major.

/coralsaw

althoug as a major you probably own more CoTs which gives u extra merchants...which IMO is quite a bonus if playing with max Mercantalism (which is very nice in the beginning when tradeefficiency is not that great)
 

Dustman

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Several things.

First, I never autosend merchants. Whatever people say about AI unable to handle trade as efficient as human, AI CHEATS. Let say, me, France, early 16th century, my trade level is 10 and I have a monarch with 5 dots in administrative skills. What is the chance to establish 3 merchants in freshly discovered CoT in Zanzibar when sent a bunch of 6? We see three nations sitting there with 5 merchants each, so we HOPE to get at least 4 there. How many got there in 2 monthes? 4? No. 3? No. 1 (ONE) is established, 1 failed and four gone forever without any reasons. We think 'Bad luck' and send 1 year later 6 more. How many get there? One established, one kicked some one and four gone again.. Bad luck? With 10th (level TEN) trade level and Very Good administrator? Doubtless. We start fearing this CoT when next 2 merchants disapear for good in few monthes. But since we are peaceful reach pig with honorable reputation, strong army and navy, rather small amount of colonists, what we do? Right, send merchants to the lone CoT where we have less than 5 merchants. Our diplomats sign two new trade agreements with barbarians in the heart of Black Continent. Finally, we have 5 merchants there! Celebration is clouded: our merchant is kicked out. By whom? Our freshly aquired companions or old trade enemies Oman (with whom we agree to not compete ages ago)? Two years later we still see only 4 nations, including ours, in CoT but rate of competition is higher than even in Venice or Flanders.

Second, AI send merchants 1 by 1 in very overcrowded CoTs. And of course best thing they manage to achieve is kicking someone out. And what? No merchants left to fill in this market whole.

Third: nation with trade agreements with whole world is still very vulnerable to competition. One can send at least one merchant to CoT where somebody you agreed to not compete is keeping monopoly. If you have 4 merchants and nobody is monopolist in the center, you can send at least 2 merchants but often even more. Sending at least two is the best way. But this is

Forth: If you send pair, first merchant has reasonable chance to prepare a place for the second. With lower trade levels three or even four merchants would requier to make the same.

Fifth: some DP choices are to costly to leave for AI to handle them. I mean Free Trade. Bunch of expencive merchants sent to ROTW one by one (and doomed most of the time) can hurt even such monsters as Spain, England, China.

Sixth: (not considered trade as it is but rather domestic policy) number of merchants matter, as well as their cost.Should we kick out some a$$e$ out of our cot? Or send our 36D merchants in 220D CotT in Zanzibariber? If I have less than 12 merchants per year, I wouldn't do that. If we have maxed merchantilizm and 60% trade efficiency, we would get our money back in 8-9 monthes if our first merchant will occupy a sit for long enough time. Most likely we'll need to send two to cover our expences. With free trade maxed, such merchant needs to stand up competittion for long long time.

Seven: This is the end. Got tired to write all these down..
 

Dustman

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Yeah, eight: best way to ruin diplo-relations with your vassalss is making trade agreement with them and send waves of your merchant. Seems strange but become regularities that you and your vassal compete one with another ruining relation and like no tomorrow.
 

unmerged(7570)

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I love to monopolize new centers of trade that open up. You can make a fortune doing that and usually other nations won't bother trying to compete against you.

Another thing I like to do is wait until I gain six merchants and then dump them into a center of trade....it generally gives me a good presense there.

And who really cares if you end up ruining relations with another country. It is a cut throat world out there and those other nations have to deal with it :D :cool:

And I am really starting to wonder about trade agreements. I may stop accepting them because they take away from my chances of getting monopolies I think but I am not sure.
 

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Re: trade

Originally posted by BJCard
Hell, I may be speaking blasphemy, but unless I am playing a small minor, I just turn on autosend so I don't have to worry about it ever.
Good way to loose a ton of money. The auto send feature is inefficient and doesn't really find the best markets in which to compeate for trade.
 

boehm

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Re: Re: trade

Originally posted by Petrus
Good way to loose a ton of money. The auto send feature is inefficient and doesn't really find the best markets in which to compeate for trade.

....its actually quite weird because u would think that the allocation of merchants to the different CoTs would not bee too hard optimize via a program....simply optimizing return...
 

Castellon

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First let me say that the idea above about sending your merchants a day apart works amazing! Thanks for that tip, my merchants are much more effecient now, and I get messages about them.

Second, I tend to sign trade agreaments with the 3 biggest neighbours.
For example starting as Castile(Spain) I sign agreaments with Aragon and Portugal (my allies) and either England or France (depends who is winning. This way I can still get 5 guys in any CoT, and my home CoT suffers very little attrition.
 

AlanC9

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Personally, I just go for five merchants in any CoT I own, dump a swarm into any new CoT that opens up, and look for any overseas CoTs with only one or two nations in them. The rest of the time I ignore the whole thing. Just a waste of money and attention.

As for the autosend, the problem is that every nation runs the same AI routines, so they all tend to send merchants to the same CoTs. This means that everyone just competes each other to death. Anytime I see a lot of different flags in a CoT, I stay the hell out.
 

Vormaerin

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Re: Re: Re: trade

Originally posted by boehm


....its actually quite weird because u would think that the allocation of merchants to the different CoTs would not bee too hard optimize via a program....simply optimizing return...

Return according to what criteria? The AI tends to seek maximum income as its first priority, therefore it tended to send you to expensive ROTW CoTs like Delhi. After all, what other way can you calculate return if you have an indefinite time period involved? Delhi @36 is a better investment than Mecklenburg @9 if the merchant lasts a decent number of years.

What the computer can not do is: calculate the opportunity costs of that extra 27d, send merchants in pairs for maximum chance of 'sticking', or factor in relative competitiveness of different CoTs.

Aloha
Vormaerin
 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: trade

Originally posted by Vormaerin

What the computer can not do is: calculate the opportunity costs of that extra 27d,
Which is what the human player does almost without thinking. Still, when the AI sends merchants to large CoT, it does model the feeding frenzy of a big market.
 

boehm

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Re: Re: Re: Re: trade

Originally posted by Vormaerin


Return according to what criteria? The AI tends to seek maximum income as its first priority, therefore it tended to send you to expensive ROTW CoTs like Delhi. After all, what other way can you calculate return if you have an indefinite time period involved? Delhi @36 is a better investment than Mecklenburg @9 if the merchant lasts a decent number of years.

What the computer can not do is: calculate the opportunity costs of that extra 27d, send merchants in pairs for maximum chance of 'sticking', or factor in relative competitiveness of different CoTs.

Aloha
Vormaerin

comeon Im sure...if u have all the data and know the exact competitive model, then u would know!:

-Expected average duration of stay in CoT(x) from sending 1 additional merchant to CoT(x)

...knowing this it should be fairly easy to calculate the marginal payoff per merchant in each CoT

but u are right ofcause I forgot to mention by which criteria I wanted to optimize return and in this situation it probably makes the most sence to optimize it according to "% return per "d" invested" although u could ofcause optimize it using "absolute return per merchant" but his could lead to a very inefficient strategy...I guess u could make it so that it creates an attrativeness index of the different CoTs based partly on both calculations with different weigths depending on how many merchants the country recieves and the state of its economy.

I really dont think it would be that difficult a task to create a "auto send merchant" which would on average outperform the human-player intuitive payoff analysis.
 

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Autosenders of the World Unite!

I always, always, always autosend ... as soon as I have enough working capital to not worry about the cost of sending. On Norm/Norm, before anyone (except Venice) discovers monopolies, my autosender has 5 mercants in every known CoT the late 1400s and I've seen the Autosender save up mercants to send them in bunches. It even does a decent job at maintaining monopolies (but to be fair, my no. 1 priority is always to max out trade tech via refineries, so it's easier for the autosender).

If it weren't for autosend, I wouldn't use merchants at all, as it's too much micromanaging (see prior rant on unwarranted user intervention).

Dyr
 

JohnMK

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Re: Autosenders of the World Unite!

Originally posted by Dyrlac
and I've seen the Autosender save up mercants to send them in bunches. Dyr

I've never seen this, and I use autosend all of the time! What I suspect happened was that he couldn't afford to send out a merchant, and then because January came along, all of the sudden he could? Anyway, I totally agree with everything else you say; I love autosend, and I usually don't find it wasting away merchants on "hopeless" CoT's. I very frequently find myself with numerous merchants in every CoT that's within my knowledge. Not a bad result considering how much time it saves you. Now, I'm sure the human can do it better, but I honestly prefer to level the playing field in this regard.
 

grumbold

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: trade

Originally posted by boehm

comeon Im sure...if u have all the data and know the exact competitive model, then u would know!:
<snip>

Unfortunately I don't think this information gets stored in the save file (especially not on a country by country basis) and your success rates will have to be constantly monitored to account for changing levels of trade tech for you and your competitors. In EU2 I've certainly come to the conclusion that the only time I (or anyone else)makes money is when some nations stop competing. If everyone sends all their merchants all the time then the competition costs more than it is worth.