Trade or Economic for Russia?

[Ruian]

Yeah Russia is very poor and has been hit hard with all the money nerfs since 1.25. Absent a Ming bank I usually pick on them and PLC since they are guaranteed to have infinite money in peace deals despite having excessive amounts of loans/bankruptcies. Some very high percentage of games are played in Europe, India, even Persia and SEA. In fairness, that's most of the tags in the game. Africa has a bunch of gold mines as well. So I think most folks aren't even aware of the extreme money struggle that can exist if you picked the wrong place to play in.

You can bank up 20k pretty quickly by attacking Ming and not taking land. Just continuously attack tributaries until they dishonor the call to arms, wait for a bankruptcy and repeat. Keeping China in one piece is a challenge all its own, however. The usual strategy is to kill his rebels for him while you're at war so he doesn't break.

 

[Astalic]

Eco is more an early game idea and is great for Multiplayer (eco+quality+offensive =115% disc) or a tall game (but if you really play tall you take both)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Neither. If you must pick between the two, then economic because it will make your military better and give you more money.

You'd be best served with diplomatic most likely. If you don't want to expand a lot then you can just push more military stuff too. You have the most important things for expanding with direct coring already so pick what you like.

 

[BlazeKnight_]

I've played much less than you have, though I tend to have the same opinion re: economic v trade. The -20% development is great but trade ideas just make so much more money. And I like a lot of the other admin power ideas better for early ideas, so by the time it seems worth taking economic, it's late enough in the game (tax income matters less, not a lot of time to enjoy -20% development, already making $$) that it makes more sense to pick a mil idea instead to gear up for a late game blob fest.

Just curious though - why is econ ideas great for multiplayer? I've never played MP.

-20% Dev, 5% Discipline. Either one is mandatory, both is god. Eco is taken by every single nation with any build as 2nd idea.

 

[LSF]

Why wasting slots with so bad ideas like Economic and Trade? If you just want to blob, take something like Influence or Offensive. Get merchants from TCs.

 

[Jiben]

Do what you feel is best, you could otherwise go quantity for a cheaper army if you prefer that approach since your economy will probably fix itself in 30 ish years anyway from conquests in asia. Otherwise eco is good but i could understand not wanting to use admin mana for it, never been a huge fan of trade myself unless i play a colonizer or venice or something but if you like it pick it.

 

[LastSalian]

I spend most of my admin points on just conquering and coring

Then Economic is not an option. If money is a problem, try living off war reparations and pay tribute. Also convert any territory with dev > 40 into states. Now on your 5th idea, I'd go Exploration or Diplomatic, or Quantity if you're really having a bad time with money.

 

[Kapi96]

You know, in my first 1500 hours I had the same opinion. I thought Economic ideas were the best idea group. Often the first group I took. And now? I hardly ever take them. The thing that's keeping me from taking econ ideas is the fact that you want Humanism/Religious as well as Admin ideas in most of your runs. And the earlier you take those other groups the better. If you take economic as well, you're constraining your admin power by a lot. When are you going to take Humanist/Religious ideas then? As 3rd group? And then Admin as 5th group? You're delaying crucial groups by taking economic. Diplomatic power however is often plentiful in the early/midgame.

Besides, Economic ideas are not THAT great at making money. + tax isn't that great, -5% maintenance is a small bonus, production efficiency is good, but not as good as goods produced or trade efficiency, -% build cost is stronger than in the past though. They have some good things going for them, don't get me wrong. Strong military policies. Ideas that save monarch power (inflation reduction, dev cost reduction). The best idea is probably the -20% development cost, but you don't want to be developing much, except for institutions.
But what of that is something you'd say you can't miss? Still, since 1.30 more than ever before, making good money is important. You want courthouses and state houses everywhere. You want high level advisors asap. And for that you need good income. And good income comes from building manufacturies which require money in the first place. Trade fills that in better than economic ideas.

For multiplayer though, economic ideas are top tier.

I certainly don't think Economic are the best group. Whether I take them or not depends a lot on the country/situation. Religious ideas are great, I'll agree with that. They often are one of my first 3 picks. Humanist I don't like. I'd take it if I were playing a Confucian country, but I also don't like playing Confucian countries, so I think I've taken it a total of 2 times in my 2300 hours so far.

Admin I consider to be borderline trash tier. Most of it is focused on mercs, which I typically never use, so they're just wasted ideas. They're only worth getting for core cost reduction and governing capacity. The core cost reduction is only worth it if you're going for a WC (which I'm probably never going to do again because it's crazy boring and tedious). The governing capacity is nice, certainly not essential, but nice. Definitely not worth wasting an idea group on though.

 

[Titanius Puffin]

Personally, I tend to go for trade if cash is what I really want (and I'm not a coloniser with heaps of merchants already).
Perhaps counter-intuitively, I consider economic ideas if I don't have enough manpower, and want to develop inland trade centres.

Level 3 inland centres of trade give +30% manpower in their states, so getting -20% dev costs reduces the price of bumping up the manpower .
But trade ideas give cash (merchants and trade efficiency).

 

[EarlKonrad]

Personally, I tend to go for trade if cash is what I really want (and I'm not a coloniser with heaps of merchants already).
Perhaps counter-intuitively, I consider economic ideas if I don't have enough manpower, and want to develop inland trade centres.

Level 3 inland centres of trade give +30% manpower in their states, so getting -20% dev costs reduces the price of bumping up the manpower .
But trade ideas give cash (merchants and trade efficiency).

In your example trade might even work better as the number of lvl 3 centers of trade you can have is influenced by how many merchants you have, hence more merchants even more manpower. Trade gives you 3 merchants out of the gate and many of its policies also give you a merchant.

Come to think of it, if you have a lvl 3 Cost with either grain/livestock + manufactory + edict + quantity, you will get a heck of a lot of manpower. I never gave much attention to inland Costs and always focused on the costal ones, maybe I should change this.

 

[Cavalry]

I didn't play Russia yet but the first 3 ideas may be on 3 type Adm, Dip, Mil to utilize the 3 free policy slot. Trade idea open a lot more of good trade policies combo, so it can earn more money than the trade ideas imply.

 

[Titanius Puffin]

Come to think of it, if you have a lvl 3 Cost with either grain/livestock + manufactory + edict + quantity, you will get a heck of a lot of manpower. I never gave much attention to inland Costs and always focused on the costal ones, maybe I should change this.

Good point about trade ideas and getting more lvl 3 CoT.. As for focussing on inland centres of trade for manpower, I recorded a guide on it (shameless plug).