Trade nodes & Culture - thoughts.

[Wesch]

Well, I have over 200 hours of playing EU IV by now, both single and multiplayer.
I don't really play with much mods, because this game is way more intresting and have so much in-depth features than EU III without expansions, but there are still some things that can be further developed, balanced or just fixed.
To begin with (the real point of thread) I'd like to see an option, disguised as a building, to change province's trade node appurtenance. The province that you want to see in another node must obviously border the node (the one you want to attach the province to). For example it would cost base 50/100 diplo points and cash around 100 denars, depending on: if the province is "Important centre of trade", or is placed by the sea, river, simply if it gets any boosts you'll pay more, also province trade power is raising the cost. To protect the game from beeing unbalanced the cost of such action would double every time you do it. That's the feature I'd like to see implemented somehow.

Culture - base factor that stops me from EU III-like playstyle where you could simply conquer pretty much everything (Dat HRE though). Here you must deal with culture, which is awesome and realistic feature, but there one thing that needs a fix I think. Accepting culture and "Sending them to work on field" event should more controlled or triggered with player's acknowledgement or even a decision. There could be a option to i.e.: "Increase the funding on cultural unification" which would increase intollerance and add base revolt risk to every province that's culture is not primary, but in return you'd get cheaper price of changing the cutlure by, let's say, 10-20% - so if you get province with base tax 10, you would use only 225 or 200 points instead of 250. Also if the culture that is not accepted is at least more than 5% of population can get a status of minority, which would mean that they have lowered the revolt risk, for: cash, diplo power and it would lower taxes, production effency, trade power and other cash outcomes by 17% (it would mean 50% lessend taxes) - so this idea means: No revolt risk for unaccepted culture, but further penalties for taxes. When the population is more than 15-25% you can set it as a accepted culture within great cost of cash and diplo power, but the requirements should be like: true faith in every province that has the culture you want to accept, at least one administrative building in province like court for example and max cultures that player can accept is (?) somehow determined by - numer of provinces you own, percentage of people which are of primary culture and number of provinces that have the culture you want to set as accpeted but is not within your borders (what I mean is: if there's a country with 20 provinces with this culture and have 2 provinces, which more that metioned 15-25% of your population you pay a lot more cash or something, some kind of penalty).

I'm aware that these feature aren't "polished", hard to implement and also threathen the game balance, but I'm sure (esspecially culture fix) would bring some flavor into the game. i hope some of you would like it

 

[TheBloke]

Well, I have over 200 hours of playing EU IV by now, both single and multiplayer.
I don't really play with much mods, because this game is way more intresting and have so much in-depth features than EU III without expansions, but there are still some things that can be further developed, balanced or just fixed.
To begin with (the real point of thread) I'd like to see an option, disguised as a building, to change province's trade node appurtenance. The province that you want to see in another node must obviously border the node (the one you want to attach the province to). For example it would cost base 50/100 diplo points and cash around 100 denars, depending on: if the province is "Important centre of trade", or is placed by the sea, river, simply if it gets any boosts you'll pay more, also province trade power is raising the cost. To protect the game from beeing unbalanced the cost of such action would double every time you do it. That's the feature I'd like to see implemented somehow.

That's an interesting idea. A bit like adding provinces to the HRE - adding provinces to a trade node. It would certainly make for some interesting strategic decisions. I'm not sure what it would do to game balance, but it definitely sounds interesting.

 

[Wesch]

I'm glad someone responded to my post.
Yes, I hope it would be a strategic decision due to the costs that can outbid the diplo point stack (depending on tech group), or mabye there should be a limit for each trade node, how much provinces you can add?

 

[TheBloke]

I'm glad someone responded to my post.

The forum has been a bit quieter over Christmas, and in particular since New Year. You might get more responses over the next few days.

Yes, I hope it would be a strategic decision due to the costs that can outbid the diplo point stack (depending on tech group), or mabye there should be a limit for each trade node, how much provinces you can add?

I would think there'd need to be some limit - purely from a game engine point of view, you'd want to prevent a trade node disappearing (i.e. all provinces moved to another node.) It would be much easier to implement given the assumption that all trade nodes still exist, but the provinces that supply them can change up to a point.

A simple, easy way to do that would be to say that every node must have a minimum of X provinces and you can't move any more out of a Node when it only has X. Maybe X = 5, something like that? I don't know what the smallest Trade Node in the Vanilla game is at the moment. One of the smallest I'm aware of is Timbuktu, which has 13. So yeah 5 would be OK.

But as I say, I can't think through the full implications on game balance. I would think the cost would need to be pretty high, and you would need to own both the province to be moved, and a province that borders it, which is in the neighbouring node. Plus you can only do it if you have a Merchant there - and maybe actually it could be made a Merchant task, like a third type of Merchant Mission, and it takes maybe 24 or 48 months to complete? So the big cost of doing it is that you have a Merchant earning no money at all for 2 - 4 years while you move over one province.

The risk is that it would become another mechanic that allows big, powerful nations to become even more big and powerful. Because once they own a bunch of provinces they can now re-configure the trade map to suit their purposes, and other nations lack the power to prevent them.

At the least, I think moving a trade node should give an immediate CB and a relations penalty to any other nations in the Trade Node you moved the province from, and an extra relations penalty for any nations that have their capital in the node you moved from.

But I'm still not sure how to overcome the general factor of this being another way that rich nations get richer. But I suppose if there were sufficient limitations/costs/penalties, that might be too bad.

The problem with all this is that if the result is that it's quite a niche feature - because it has to have high costs to not be overpowered - then it's much less likely to ever be implemented by the devs.

And sadly I don't think this is possible to mod into the game, I'm not aware of any mod action that can change the Trade Node a province exists in.

Anyway, it's an interesting idea that would be fun if implemented correctly!

 

[Wesch]

But as I say, I can't think through the full implications on game balance. I would think the cost would need to be pretty high, and you would need to own both the province to be moved, and a province that borders it, which is in the neighbouring node. Plus you can only do it if you have a Merchant there - and maybe actually it could be made a Merchant task, like a third type of Merchant Mission, and it takes maybe 24 or 48 months to complete? So the big cost of doing it is that you have a Merchant earning no money at all for 2 - 4 years while you move over one province.

That's a brilliant idea! I think that's main change which gives this idea a chance. First of all it would stop the biggest powers in the game, their piles of gold (early game) would be needless, and one you pick trade/expansion/exploration ideas you'd benefit from that feature much more. He should work like a missionary and have an upkeep and modifiers like: When the province is surrounded by yours you get +2.0%, and if not you get -1.0%, or if you capital is in it you get a slight bonus, let's say +0.5%, also depending on it's power it - cost should raise as the power raises. The time is good, around 2 to 4 years should be a balanced estimated time of this proces. Mabye the modifiers should include culture's province?

A simple, easy way to do that would be to say that every node must have a minimum of X provinces and you can't move any more out of a Node when it only has X. Maybe X = 5, something like that? I don't know what the smallest Trade Node in the Vanilla game is at the moment. One of the smallest I'm aware of is Timbuktu, which has 13. So yeah 5 would be OK.

Sure, that's another point that clarifies requirements and limits for such a feature. Going even further I'd add an upper border for each trade node, mabye even individually, but let's say it'd be 30/40 prov's?

At the least, I think moving a trade node should give an immediate CB and a relations penalty to any other nations in the Trade Node you moved the province from, and an extra relations penalty for any nations that have their capital in the node you moved from.

On the other hand this is a little bit too harsh considering all small, trade-based countries. For example, if Anhalt would gain a province that is in Wien or Frankfurt trade node and wanted to add it to Lubeck trade node - then every nation from Wien of Frankfurt trade node gets a CB, like trade dispute? That would truly kill small states, and I love to play them... Still adding a realtions penalty is a good idea, or mabye the country with the biggest share in node that lost the province should get a CB, which still is harsh but needed to balance it, right?

The risk is that it would become another mechanic that allows big, powerful nations to become even more big and powerful. Because once they own a bunch of provinces they can now re-configure the trade map to suit their purposes, and other nations lack the power to prevent them.

I think that this problem may be resolved by the 3rd feature you introduced - the time and obligation to get more merchants, it would stop countries that are based on military from picking these benefits witohut further concessions toward their current policy.

Also I have one little "thought" left - what about manufactures? Mabye they should have a role in it? Like decreasing the time or cost of changing the province's node?

 

[TheBloke]

Sure, that's another point that clarifies requirements and limits for such a feature. Going even further I'd add an upper border for each trade node, mabye even individually, but let's say it'd be 30/40 prov's?

Yeah sounds good - limit it on both minimum and maximum in a given Node.

On the other hand this is a little bit too harsh considering all small, trade-based countries. For example, if Anhalt would gain a province that is in Wien or Frankfurt trade node and wanted to add it to Lubeck trade node - then every nation from Wien of Frankfurt trade node gets a CB, like trade dispute? That would truly kill small states, and I love to play them... Still adding a realtions penalty is a good idea, or mabye the country with the biggest share in node that lost the province should get a CB, which still is harsh but needed to balance it, right?

Yeah OK, fair point. That's the real challenge of balancing stuff like this: working out how to inhibit the majors without killing the minors.

A CB only in certain circumstances might work yeah, based on trade node share or just on nation size somehow. Though it starts getting a bit messy, so perhaps the CB just doesn't work at all. Maybe there's some other major-inhibitor factor that could be thought of.

Or maybe just the time and costs involved would be enough of a limitation to ensure it's a useful, and flavourful feature, but is not so commonplace as to be OP.

Also I have one little "thought" left - what about manufactures? Mabye they should have a role in it? Like decreasing the time or cost of changing the province's node?

Yeah I like that - I like any concept of multiple ways to utilise/improve a feature. Perhaps that could even be a pre-requisite; the Trade Node moving is enabled by the building of the manufactory. Or actually, no, not a manufactory, but one of the Unique Trade buildings. I say those, because Unique buildings have the inherent limitation that you can only follow one line of Unique. If you build a Unique Trade building, you can't build a Unique Government or Military.

That would of course also mean that the feature wasn't available until later in the game, which might be too limiting.

All of that would need to be thought about more, and careful balancing done.

But yes I definitely like the idea of it being enabled by a building, and then perhaps further enhanced (Merchant mission time reduced, cost reduced) by additional buildings.