Trade in eu4 : Improvement in future update ?

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Foefaller

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I've made Japan a no1 (Ouchi clan) economic world power with "only" the Philippines and the Moluccas. Early game Japan makes an ass amount of money by pirating from Beijing, and post-unification more from trade steering. With maritime, exploration, and the buffed naval ideas, I was able to field 400+ light ships (which were stronger than heavy ships so no need to invest on a combat navy) and control trade in Beijing and Malacca. I was NETTING 200+ gold a month by the 1650's and expenses payed on level 3 advisers across the board, though I did need policies that improved trade steering and goods produced. I gave my good production provinces to the Merchant guild (anything with an expensive good and easy development terrain), made all those provinces 40+ development with loyal Merchants. However I was too busy jerking off to 200+ gold instead of using that excess money to field an above-force-limit army (until I learned that taking Beijing actually hurt my economy instead of helped it).

Trade mechanics in this game are complicated enough to encourage unique play styles, but I definitely think this game needs a finance expansion. All trading is Spanish and Arab style in this game, with no investment banking advancements that the Dutch and Swedes innovated to allow tiny countries to become really rich. It's one thing to take a loan to build up to fleet strength, but its enough to start a Joint Stock Company. Not only for trade, a finance expansion would benefit domestic production too. I get that Ming are already OP, but who doesn't want to revitalize Song-era capitalism? Or see how powerful India gets if it adopts Dutch investment practices. Encourage players to take more loans willingly, or even lend money to other nations (who here actually sends loans instead of gifts? anyone?)

Well, main reason you send gifts rather than loans is because only one or two AI personalities will take loans offered by a player for any reason whatsoever.

But still, I see your point, I too want to destroy a nation's economy with a South Sea Bubble.
 

hrimhari

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Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the flows to be where the goods go, but rather where the profits end up. This is the age of Mercantilism after all, when trade was seen as zero-sum and self-sufficiency was the ultimate goal.

Spice trade with Mamluks causing a silver shortage, for example, could be represented by them clamping down on profits leaving their primary trade node towards Venice's. Something like the Opium Wars (which caused a similar "so much money flowing the wrong way it started a silver shortage) could be represented by China holding nearly all the Trade Power in the Asia trade nodes, until Great Britan won wars that forced them to transfer trade power and give them trade centers.

In that way, the real flaw is that there are actual begin points and end points; There really should be neither, and any nation could see all their production profits get siphoned off by someone else downstream if they're outplayed, or find themselves the trading mecca for the world if they play their cards right.
"where the profits end up" as if only one side profits. Again, if trade is in any way fair (not counting looting situations like the Americas), both sides profit. Mamluks and Venice both made serious money from their trade. Mamluks got silver, Venetians got pepper which they traded inland for goods, favours, ships, or everyone else's silver. Trade, by its nature, should be good for everyone.

You mention China: that doesn't mirror the real-world situation, where the British were still making amazing money, but wanted more. After opening up trade, the Chinese still kept making huge profits, just a bit less because now they were forced to accept terms favourable to the Europeans. But, profits didn't just vanish.

Its just.... not how trade works. It's how looting works, and looting should only take place with vastly unequal power.

I mean, many situations in eu4 are not and are not intended to be direct historical simulation. The speed at which certain countries were conquered, for instance. Ottomans take around least 3-4 wars to absorb the Mamluks in eu4, but took up deep a decade in real life, because the Mamluks surrendered in exchange for concessions. Thus isn't simulated because eu4 doesn't work that way.

So,no economic system will be perfect, either. But what I'd love to see is a system where trade goes both ways, and profits aren't sucked away unless there's a huge power differential. Where trade steering does matter is when we determine what route goods take between countries. Say, between Europe and China, do they go around India via Egypt (thus profiting whoever controls Egypt) or around Africa (thus profiting whoever controls the ivory coast)? Or maybe they go overland north of the Himalayas, benefiting the tribes.

I mean, that kind of trade steering was one of the key drivers of the era. It's why the age of exploration began at all: the Ottomans blocked the silk road, so they needed another route to the Indies. Portugal went around Africa, Columbus drastically underestimated the size of the globe and went west, only the continent of America saving him and his crew from starvation.

The current system does do that (but only if you conquer a bunch along the way, Portugal's powerful trading empire would be laughably pathetic in eu4, since they don't have enough power in each node, since their ships can't just take it all back to Sevilla). We just need to make trade more like trade - ie, mutually beneficial - and less like a zero-sum game.
 

Dutchman251

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Most probably, a serious overhaul of the trade system would overcomplicate it. It might be very interesting to have markets for goods, and have trading via certain trade routes, but most probably this would hamper performance too much.
What should be done as well, is that in reality the government only earned 'trade income' by having consumption and tariffs. This would make engaging with trade rather an issue of tariff setting and trying to have trade flows through your country. It would make up for a more interesting game, I think.
 

Zalmoxis

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I suppose they could help alleviate the 'one way' nature of trade flow by adding a few more routes that go "backwards". For instance, what if they added a trade route from Hudson bay towards California? Or what about a route that sends trade from the southern part of south America to Australia, and/or a route that sends trade from Peru to Australia? This has the added benefit of turning some 'start nodes' into nodes that can be downstream from other nodes and can potentially redirect global trade.


I suppose there can possible be a 'trade agreement' section in the diplomacy menu. For instance, you are the Dutch and you want to grab trade power in Japan, every Japan tag in that region want's money for it's trade goods going downstream so the Dutch have a hard time getting anything of worth out of that Nippon trade node unless it deals diplomatically with (or conquers) the locals, say it's like some money per turn towards the Japanese tags who agree to trade and for each one trade deal stuck, the locals give their trade power to the Dutch. this creates a situation where the global trade powers now seek trade partners with those that don't want to or are unable to be global trade powers so that everyone in the transaction benefits. It's non-trade focused countries selling their trade power to trade focused countries in exchange for ducats directly

The Portuguese for example can also strike deals with locals, so now you got Japanese tags sending it's trade power to the Dutch, and other Japanese tags doing the same with the Portuguese, these are trade conflicts that apply to both ends of the trade agreement! Once the trade expires, a Japanese tag might decide to become a trade power for itself and stop doing trade agreements, and maybe goes isolationist, now it's trade power in its home node is in competition to the Dutch and Portuguese, because now it wants it's trade power in the Nippon node to have greater returns than the income it can receive by trade deal.

-edit-

I'd like to add that japan's trade only flows in one direction, so the above example doesn't exactly make sense for directing trade income, unless they do something like add a trade route that allows trade to also flow from Japan to another trade node, like the Philippines. But this would be a factor in, say, India or the Ivory coast and other areas that have multiple places trade can flow to.

-edit-

However, if you have a merchant collecting in Japan, this changes things because now you are collecting income in a node that you control based on trade agreements, so it still works for japan. unless I am misjudging a mechanic or something. So for this to work, you should be able to have a merchant collect in nodes that have a tag that has a trade agreement with you, not just nodes that you own a province in.
 
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3ishop

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I suppose they could help alleviate the 'one way' nature of trade flow by adding a few more routes that go "backwards". For instance, what if they added a trade route from Hudson bay towards California? Or what about a route that sends trade from the southern part of south America to Australia, and/or a route that sends trade from Peru to Australia? This has the added benefit of turning some 'start nodes' into nodes that can be downstream from other nodes and can potentially redirect global trade.
If you make a loop it causes the system to crash due to it making infinite money.
 

Big Bad France

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"where the profits end up" as if only one side profits. Again, if trade is in any way fair (not counting looting situations like the Americas), both sides profit. Mamluks and Venice both made serious money from their trade. Mamluks got silver, Venetians got pepper which they traded inland for goods, favours, ships, or everyone else's silver. Trade, by its nature, should be good for everyone.

You mention China: that doesn't mirror the real-world situation, where the British were still making amazing money, but wanted more. After opening up trade, the Chinese still kept making huge profits, just a bit less because now they were forced to accept terms favourable to the Europeans. But, profits didn't just vanish.

Its just.... not how trade works. It's how looting works, and looting should only take place with vastly unequal power.

I mean, many situations in eu4 are not and are not intended to be direct historical simulation. The speed at which certain countries were conquered, for instance. Ottomans take around least 3-4 wars to absorb the Mamluks in eu4, but took up deep a decade in real life, because the Mamluks surrendered in exchange for concessions. Thus isn't simulated because eu4 doesn't work that way.

So,no economic system will be perfect, either. But what I'd love to see is a system where trade goes both ways, and profits aren't sucked away unless there's a huge power differential. Where trade steering does matter is when we determine what route goods take between countries. Say, between Europe and China, do they go around India via Egypt (thus profiting whoever controls Egypt) or around Africa (thus profiting whoever controls the ivory coast)? Or maybe they go overland north of the Himalayas, benefiting the tribes.

I mean, that kind of trade steering was one of the key drivers of the era. It's why the age of exploration began at all: the Ottomans blocked the silk road, so they needed another route to the Indies. Portugal went around Africa, Columbus drastically underestimated the size of the globe and went west, only the continent of America saving him and his crew from starvation.

The current system does do that (but only if you conquer a bunch along the way, Portugal's powerful trading empire would be laughably pathetic in eu4, since they don't have enough power in each node, since their ships can't just take it all back to Sevilla). We just need to make trade more like trade - ie, mutually beneficial - and less like a zero-sum game.

I think the issue with flipping trade direction is that Europe just doesn't control the high-value trade goods. It just makes sense that high-value goods like spices and silk would flow to high-population areas that don't have direct access to those goods, since those are the areas where the price would be the highest. Trade in EU4 is over-simplified and somewhat Euro-centric, but really to maximize trade potential, you need control of both ends of the flow anyway. That's true starting in Europe or Asia.

The game really should include trade relations slots, where a country would be able to purchase trade power from another country. I think that would really fix most of the issues. That way gold flows into India while trade flows out, unless somebody conquers India, then trade just flows out.
 

3ishop

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Yeah, but 'Peru to Australia' and 'Hudson bay to California' don't create loops, unless I'm mistaken.
Ah yeah sorry, mixed Hudson bay and St. Lawrence.
 

Foefaller

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"where the profits end up" as if only one side profits. Again, if trade is in any way fair (not counting looting situations like the Americas), both sides profit. Mamluks and Venice both made serious money from their trade. Mamluks got silver, Venetians got pepper which they traded inland for goods, favours, ships, or everyone else's silver. Trade, by its nature, should be good for everyone.

You mention China: that doesn't mirror the real-world situation, where the British were still making amazing money, but wanted more. After opening up trade, the Chinese still kept making huge profits, just a bit less because now they were forced to accept terms favourable to the Europeans. But, profits didn't just vanish.

Its just.... not how trade works. It's how looting works, and looting should only take place with vastly unequal power.

I mean, many situations in eu4 are not and are not intended to be direct historical simulation. The speed at which certain countries were conquered, for instance. Ottomans take around least 3-4 wars to absorb the Mamluks in eu4, but took up deep a decade in real life, because the Mamluks surrendered in exchange for concessions. Thus isn't simulated because eu4 doesn't work that way.

So,no economic system will be perfect, either. But what I'd love to see is a system where trade goes both ways, and profits aren't sucked away unless there's a huge power differential. Where trade steering does matter is when we determine what route goods take between countries. Say, between Europe and China, do they go around India via Egypt (thus profiting whoever controls Egypt) or around Africa (thus profiting whoever controls the ivory coast)? Or maybe they go overland north of the Himalayas, benefiting the tribes.

I mean, that kind of trade steering was one of the key drivers of the era. It's why the age of exploration began at all: the Ottomans blocked the silk road, so they needed another route to the Indies. Portugal went around Africa, Columbus drastically underestimated the size of the globe and went west, only the continent of America saving him and his crew from starvation.

The current system does do that (but only if you conquer a bunch along the way, Portugal's powerful trading empire would be laughably pathetic in eu4, since they don't have enough power in each node, since their ships can't just take it all back to Sevilla). We just need to make trade more like trade - ie, mutually beneficial - and less like a zero-sum game.

Trade is good for both sides. Trade deficits when you are using commodity currency are absolutely not.

...and before you think I'm some Bannonite wingnut or anything, I'm talking about this era, when there is no fiat or free-floating currency, and even ideas about paper money and fractional reserve banking are in their infancy throughout most of the time we play (well, other than paper money in China, but external trade was still done in gold and silver). The main idea of Mercantilism is that if you are using gold or silver for your currency within your economy, the last thing you want to do is trade it away, because the less money you have, the less economy you can have. I mentioned Opium Wars because the trade deficit Great Britain had with buying Tea w/silver was so great that it was causing inflation in Great Britain (because if you have start having more and more bank notes for silver than you do the silver to cover it all, that paper starts becoming less real money and more... paper) so much so that IIRC even after opening up trade they still had to switch to a gold standard for the pound.

That's why Mercantilism was a thing, because the simplest way to make sure that you never traded away more of your currency for goods you import than what you got for the goods you exported was to try and make ALL the goods you would ever need and never import, or baring that, loot the raw materials you need from a new continent, or beat up the country that has the thing you want until they agree to buy your drugs to offset the trade deficit.

Now that the Internet Argument Rant(tm) part of the post is over, I wonder if you can represent that kind of trade deficit risk in a way that benefits nations who control the vast majority of trade power in nodes upstream. Maybe they get to leech some of the trade income from the capital/center of trade node of nations that are directing trade their way? Probably with a devlopment req on the country or node to keep a nomadic native OPN suddenly getting filthy rich because they happened to be sitting on a natural harbor when Europeans first found the node center.
 
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