Trade efficiancy nearly useless? Or just embargo everyone..

Trade efficiancy nearly useless? Or just embargo everyone..

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Exactly, mercantilism does the exact opposite what it means. It should also be retired. We already have provincial trade power modifier.

Why have mercantilism, when all it does it increases the trade power by double of its amount.
It's time to bring common sense to these things that confuse newer players.
Since when EU4 trade mechanics confuses players? Blasphemy!!!
 

indika_tates

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We're trying to get away from the exponential increases in trade income that result in completely absurd late-game incomes. This was a big part of that.

Wiz the problem is that you nerfed trade steering (among other things) so hard that is practically useless nowadays. I noticed as the Hansa that having 60 caravels protecting trade in Novgorod (owning Neva with trade post and marketplace) only steer about 40% trade node value.
 
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I also generally think it's a bad idea to have modifiers affecting multiple things like this. Trade Power modifiers should be what's affecting trade power, not efficiency.

Global Trade Income Modifier will be retired.
Won't this be an issue for nations like Venice and Hansa who were only really viable because of their compounding bonuses? Without those they're just not going to be able to compete with military nations. The playstyle was already spam mercenaries, combine them after a loss, spam more mercenaries, combine then after a loss, repeat until Prussia is exhausted.

I mean military bonuses stack indefinitely (with discipline being the greatest devil) to the point where a nation like Prussia with military ideas added to it easily 1:4s which is beyond ahistorical. Yet trade nations are getting their ability to stack trade ideas to reach 100+ gold a month removed?
 

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Won't this be an issue for nations like Venice and Hansa who were only really viable because of their compounding bonuses? Without those they're just not going to be able to compete with military nations. The playstyle was already spam mercenaries, combine them after a loss, spam more mercenaries, combine then after a loss, repeat until Prussia is exhausted.

I mean military bonuses stack indefinitely (with discipline being the greatest devil) to the point where a nation like Prussia with military ideas added to it easily 1:4s which is beyond ahistorical. Yet trade nations are getting their ability to stack trade ideas to reach 100+ gold a month removed?
What? Merchant republics that were already declining in 1444 are not viable in late-game? What heresy is this!?
 
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We're trying to get away from the exponential increases in trade income that result in completely absurd late-game incomes. This was a big part of that.
Have you considered making embargos against upstream nations harm your trade more upstream? Honestly I think you guys need to toss this "no penalty for embargoing your rivals" nonsense.
 

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What? Merchant republics that were already declining in 1444 are not viable in late-game? What heresy is this!?
As of patch 1.11 they were not viable late game already through the lack of autonomy reduction on their government type. They were ALREADY considered weak late game, and nobody looked to the Hansa or Venice as a late game power.

Since then they have lost naval force limit from merchants (+5 gone base, +5 gone from their ideas which give merchants) as well as losing power from all the trade idea nerfs.

Merchant Republics were OP at one point, for sure, but they are simply too weak now.
 

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Since then they have lost naval force limit from merchants (+5 gone base, +5 gone from their ideas which give merchants) as well as losing power from all the trade idea nerfs.
Plus the loss of naval force limit from Trading Posts. And the nerf to LS Trade Steering.

And all undocumented, I believe, which is the part that tends to irritate me the most.
 
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Wiz the problem is that you nerfed trade steering (among other things) so hard that is practically useless nowadays. I noticed as the Hansa that having 60 caravels protecting trade in Novgorod (owning Neva with trade post and marketplace) only steer about 40% trade node value.

So that means that trade steering is now only worth it if you completely dominate a node?
If so then collecting on every node could probably be better income wise, even at a penalty.
 

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So that means that trade steering is now only worth it if you completely dominate a node?
If so then collecting on every node could probably be better income wise, even at a penalty.
Now you will actually have to compete for trade? Le gasp!
 
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So that means that trade steering is now only worth it if you completely dominate a node?
If so then collecting on every node could probably be better income wise, even at a penalty.
Maybe. I've definitely found numerous occasions where Steering in certain nodes made no sense, anymore. Can't say how prevalent that is, given how opaque the trading system has always been; have to do a lot of tedious trial and error to figure out the new rules.

Now you will actually have to compete for trade? Le gasp!
Actually, the opposite. it appears that competing for trade is far less of a concept than it used to be. Province trade power dominates so completely as to make Steering via Light Ship extremely questionable in terms of cost-effectiveness, particularly in Europe, particularly early game. His point is that Steering, in general, might not make sense in certain (many? most?) cases.
 

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I agree that trade must be reworked completely. Absurd trade income late game is just that, absurd. Trade efficiency is one of problems. I think the solution is not nerfing trade steering. Is nerfing trade efficiency. 10% is too much. It should increase about 4-5%. Because some nations stack trade efficiency from traditions and ideas. In my current Hansa game, in 1520 I make 90 ducats/month from trade. And I'm collecting in Lubeck from almost every inland trade node available (Trade & Plutocratic ideas). If trade efficiency were changed to a "common sense" value, trading would be powerful, but not overpowered.

So, in order to balance it you started from trade steering but I think that is not the problem as I said. The problem is the multiplicative behaviour that trade efficiency has directly on your trade income even after the first nerf. What I propose to? If you look at technology, tax income is not boosted by it. And it should. Because trade income escalates quickly while taxes only increases by ideas and traditions. If mainteinance cost of everything raises, and also tax income (with tax efficiency, like trade one) it will balance the income between taxes & trade. And it will make economic based nations richer in the late game.

Also, the AI can't compete with humans about trading. A Portuguese human player can reach Canton very early in the game (1550 is enough). So, if the human player is rich is because the AI can't compete with us and this is a fact.
 
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Maybe. I've definitely found numerous occasions where Steering in certain nodes made no sense, anymore. Can't say how prevalent that is, given how opaque the trading system has always been; have to do a lot of tedious trial and error to figure out the new rules.

Actually, the opposite. it appears that competing for trade is far less of a concept than it used to be. Province trade power dominates so completely as to make Steering via Light Ship extremely questionable in terms of cost-effectiveness, particularly in Europe, particularly early game. His point is that Steering, in general, might not make sense in certain (many? most?) cases.

Indeed, having to go back and forth several times double checking, doing math, and then trying and waiting a month just to see a minor increase in trade income is not fun.

And yes that was my point indeed, why steer? when I can collect almost as much (even at a penalty) and at the same time deny other nations from income.
If anything it makes the player even more competitive.
 

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One of the problems is that trade functions specifically to push value directly to immediately-neighboring nodes, thus enriching them. That value builds with each jump as you then take the stuff from that node and move it forward (plus integrated bonuses). So if you own entire nodes in a nice chain, the amount of income you're knocking around is immense.

At the same time, if you don't own the majority of the nodes in your chain, you will lose value. A lot of value. Imagine a chain 5 nodes long that you're wanting to move value down. You own 100% of your home / collection node and the adjacent node. You also own the majority of the source node and its adjacent node. However, while you have a couple ports and some ships in that central node in the middle of the chain, you only have 15% of the total trade power (perhaps because many small nations in that node exist and are collecting / moving trade another direction).

This theoretical trade nation will fail to transfer the majority of the trade from that node on to their capital; most of it will instead remain there or forward elsewhere, enriching local nations and competitors. All that work you've put in upstream to create trade value and move those goods across the seas will be magically obliterated in this central node. This is especially bizarre if you have a couple port provinces and some ships there. Where are those goods going? Why are they being straight-up robbed from you without even having privateers involved? Why can't you just use those ships and provinces to forward on most of that value that you brought in to begin with?

So, with trade, you have to dominate every single node in a chain just to forward the value of goods. If you don't do this you get basically nothing. But once you do pull this off, your income is absolutely ridiculous.

This all-or-none trade game should end. I should be able to colonize West Pacific islands as Portugal, have a few ports dotted around Africa and a fleet of ships, and bring all those West Pacific goods to my homeland. But I shouldn't get the benefit of all those African goods at the same time unless I stop and invest heavily in controlling that region as well (and that should require more resources). And you shouldn't be required to form massive blobbing empires just to build trade routes!

I made a full thread on this in the suggestion forums a few days ago with some mechanical details on how to resolve this issue. Check it out: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/trade-steering-changes.864216/
 
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One of the problems is that trade functions specifically to push value directly to immediately-neighboring nodes, thus enriching them. That value builds with each jump as you then take the stuff from that node and move it forward (plus integrated bonuses). So if you own entire nodes in a nice chain, the amount of income you're knocking around is immense.

At the same time, if you don't own the majority of the nodes in your chain, you will lose value. A lot of value. Imagine a chain 5 nodes long that you're wanting to move value down. You own 100% of your home / collection node and the adjacent node. You also own the majority of the source node and its adjacent node. However, while you have a couple ports and some ships in that central node in the middle of the chain, you only have 15% of the total trade power (perhaps because many small nations in that node exist and are collecting / moving trade another direction).

This theoretical trade nation will fail to transfer the majority of the trade from that node on to their capital; most of it will instead remain there or forward elsewhere, enriching local nations and competitors. All that work you've put in upstream to create trade value and move those goods across the seas will be magically obliterated in this central node. This is especially bizarre if you have a couple port provinces and some ships there. Where are those goods going? Why are they being straight-up robbed from you without even having privateers involved? Why can't you just use those ships and provinces to forward on most of that value that you brought in to begin with?

So, with trade, you have to dominate every single node in a chain just to forward the value of goods. If you don't do this you get basically nothing. But once you do pull this off, your income is absolutely ridiculous.

This all-or-none trade game should end. I should be able to colonize West Pacific islands as Portugal, have a few ports dotted around Africa and a fleet of ships, and bring all those West Pacific goods to my homeland. But I shouldn't get the benefit of all those African goods at the same time unless I stop and invest heavily in controlling that region as well (and that should require more resources). And you shouldn't be required to form massive blobbing empires just to build trade routes!

I made a full thread on this in the suggestion forums a few days ago with some mechanical details on how to resolve this issue. Check it out: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/trade-steering-changes.864216/

I've made similar suggestions many times. I would like to see the current trade system completely overhauled. Do away with the one way routes and trade steering altogether. It was just never a good idea - sorry. I'd prefer to see more of a Total War style trade route that adds to income based on distance and goods being traded. Naval powers would of course be able to pirate and blockade the routes.
 
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Incompetent

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As of patch 1.11 they were not viable late game already through the lack of autonomy reduction on their government type. They were ALREADY considered weak late game, and nobody looked to the Hansa or Venice as a late game power.

Since then they have lost naval force limit from merchants (+5 gone base, +5 gone from their ideas which give merchants) as well as losing power from all the trade idea nerfs.

Merchant Republics were OP at one point, for sure, but they are simply too weak now.

Merchant Republics can still be good at what they do later on, it's just that it is a specialised form of government that requires a different mentality to general-purpose governments. The way I think about it is like this:

With a typical European trade power (e.g. Portugal), you set up trade companies in Africa and especially Asia, conquering/colonising what you need to control trade and letting the remaining provinces generate lots of bonus goods, which then flow into your network. (African TC regions are a bit degenerate because there are hardly any non-Western nations present in them, but TC goods bonus is a big deal in India and China.)

With a Merchant Republic, you essentially *are* a trade company that happens to be a sovereign country. Expanding out to Africa and Asia is pretty much a given, but even in Europe, you play by trade company rules to some extent. Admittedly, the competition is tougher in Europe and you don't get the same unfair advantages that you get in Africa/Asia, but the basic idea of controlling trade and generating extra goods in the provinces you don't own is the same. You also effectively get one bonus 'important centre of trade' per region (trade post).

Autonomy is only a problem if you are blobbing, which is not the way to play a Merchant Republic. If you're painting solid chunks of the map in your colour, it's time to switch to some other form of government.

The force limit and light ship nerfs are bad for Merchant Republics, but the flipside of that is that provincial trade power is a really big deal now, and provincial TP is something that MRs are very good at building up. In a lot of places, you don't even need ships to protect trade.

So, with trade, you have to dominate every single node in a chain just to forward the value of goods. If you don't do this you get basically nothing. But once you do pull this off, your income is absolutely ridiculous.

The answer is multiple collection points. Sure, the potential profit is lower than if you have total control and can just harvest everything at your trade hub, but you can certainly earn good money from collecting outside your trade hub as long as your hold over that particular node is secure. Sometimes it's better to just collect the Asian trade in Cape of Good Hope rather than trying to push it all the way to Europe where your rivals can siphon it off.
 
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bbqftw

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zanzibar master race collect node
 

net.split

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The answer is multiple collection points. Sure, the potential profit is lower than if you have total control and can just harvest everything at your trade hub, but you can certainly earn good money from collecting outside your trade hub as long as your hold over that particular node is secure. Sometimes it's better to just collect the Asian trade in Cape of Good Hope rather than trying to push it all the way to Europe where your rivals can siphon it off.
This solution is functional, but it's not very interesting or strategic in nature. It's tolerable as a workaround for nations that start more "upstream" on the chain and then colonize downstream (think China going to Africa), but it's really awkward going the other way around.

Consider Genoa's starting situation. Genoa was looking to funnel goods from Crimea to the home port of Genoa. To do this, they took some islands near Constantinople and some provinces in Crimea. If you try to funnel trade to the capital, however, it will all get lost in the Constantinople node. This is actually pretty valid once the Ottomans establish Istanbul and block the trade route, but before then? And if you prevent it? It's bizarre. Those Genoese islands off the Turkish coast have no value in EU4, and that's quite awkward.

Worse, because you can just arbitrarily collect anywhere, the Ottomans can't actually block Genoese trade. Yes they can (and absolutely will) stop you from transferring it through, but then you just collect in Crimea instead. If you expand your Crimean holdings then you're actually better off doing it this way because the Genoa node itself is actually very competitive.

Eliminating the "push-forward" value increase, separating steering from collecting, permitting steering through nodes you only have modest power in, and eliminating the single-directional nature of trade would together make for a much more interesting, flexible, and usable system. Removing the push-forward value increase permits two-directional routes.
 

Mauer

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I like being able to embargo someone other than my rivals and not have to forget about the trade game because of it.
 

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I like being able to embargo someone other than my rivals and not have to forget about the trade game because of it.
Then invest into being able to trade well (idea groups and policies with trade income modifier).
 

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I made a full thread on this in the suggestion forums a few days ago with some mechanical details on how to resolve this issue. Check it out: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/trade-steering-changes.864216/
Lots of interesting and feasible thoughts. The cynic in me suspects they'll go absolutely nowhere. But props for the well-reasoned post(s).

Part of me, though, does wonder how necessary more trade changes are? I guess I don't really perceive trade to be that awful and in that much need for reform. Then, again, I didn't perceive it as a high priority for dev attention in 1.11, so clearly my sense of what their priorities should be is pretty worthless. But I don't perceive that the 1.12 changes improved the trade system or the game in any significant way. Certainly the goal of nerfing Merchant Republics was achieved (who knew that was a problem), but otherwise, was there really some compelling reason to change it before? Is there really some compelling reason to change it more/again?

By no means am I against all changes, but I do think they should develop a bit more resistance to change, in many cases. They're often a bit too quick to implement some that seem marginal, and pretty gratuitous. So much so that I really wouldn't give two hoots about their implementation, either, if they weren't frequently opaque as hell and accompanied by regretable collateral consequences. But, unfortunately, the trade system IS particularly opaque. The tooltips are worse than useless, and the (completely unnecessary) change that delays seeing the impacts of merchant reallocations makes the trial and error process particularly tedious. And, given the system's role in the game, it seems particularly ripe for unintended consequences.

Regardless of the weaknesses in the Trade system, it never really irritates me as much as some other weaknesses in the game. But I am becoming increasingly irritated with the mere fact that they keep changing F***ing rules for trade. Sure, not my call, others may disagree. But if they absolutely must change them, is it really so difficult to provide some sort of rationale or explanation (preferably ahead of time)? Particularly in cases where they remove or undermine the bonuses that were sold in previous DLC, it seems like surprise changes are poor form. But, much as I might LIKE some sort of explanation why rules that were considered fine on Monday, suddenly become problematic on Tuesday, and while I might LIKE features that were sold in a DLC to survive in subsequent patches, I'm not so naive as to expect that.

What I don't get, though, is why we have a whole set of conscious changes to a core game mechanic that were undocumented, even at patch release. That goes beyond poor form. That's just unprofessional.

Stealth changes are never appreciated. They happen way too often, occasionally even accompanied by Paradox's stunning assertions that they're myths. If someone is operating under the delusion that we enjoy hunting for these undocumented rules changes, please disabuse yourself of that notion. We don't.

So. Please. Change if you must. But STOP WITH THE STEALTH CHANGES!!!