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Badesumofu

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Trade Companies are currently rather absurd. As a European I can get more money, and more force limit out of owning all of India than an actual Indian could due to them not being able to state it all. Even if the Indian were technologically on par and had fully embraced the European ideal of subjugating everything and everyone for maximum profit, the only way that they could extract the same value out of India that I could is by moving their capital out of Asia and turning their own homeland into Trade Companies.

Here is a screenshot from the game I have been playing on and off over the last couple of months. Note I am currently paying over 100 ducats a month in interest because I took 25 loans to get the Revolution ticking faster. I also appear to have gotten very lazy about deleting conquered forts, but that's hardly surprising given that money is clearly no object at this point. Note how much money I make from Production income, Trade, and Tariffs. I've used Player map mode for easy viewing. I have Castile, Portugal, and Scandinavia under PU. My save file does not feature the word 'backup' a single time, for those wondering.

big.jpg


My first thought was that more trade company regions should be added so that wherever your capital is, you have comparable access to trade company land to exploit. At the moment if your capital is in Asia then almost your first order of business is to get it out of Asia. The problem with that is that the game's trade system is set up around Europe being the centre of everything - say you could establish trade companies in Europe as an Indian, you wouldn't actually be able to funnel the trade income back to India. You could just collect everywhere, though. And of course the Production income and FL from 0 LA are in many ways the real headline anyway.

I do understand that Asians making Trade Companies in Europe is ahistorical, but then again so is the above screenshot. Players can do stuff that is ahistorical and that isn't going to change. It strikes me though, that it would be less ahistorical (in the sense of being more realistic) for an Asian player that has conquered Europe to keep their capital in their actual homeland and make Trade Companies in Europe than to move their capital and all their states to Europe and turn their now-former homeland into Trade Companies.

The reduction in State Limit combined with the massive buff to Trade Companies has made it a lot more important to balance them somewhat for non-European tags. You can see at a glance from my screenshot that I am making only a small proportion of my income from my states. I'm probably getting less than half my force limit from them as well. I'm not objecting to Europeans being in the best position to do stuff since that's largely a historical/geographical consequence of the 1444 start, but it does bother me that a successful Asian nation simply can't replicate something like this without turning themselves into a European nation with a European capital.
 

bly08

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Ok... this is more ridiculous than I thought. Same income at around the same date, guessing around the same mp/force limit but 2x the development with minimal colonization, which means all the extra land is close to worthless. I didn't have the proper merchant setup but the difference should only be 100-200 ducats/month. The efficiency values also make a difference.

eu4_86.png
 
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alexti

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I didn't have the proper merchant setup but the difference should only 100-200 ducats/month.
Looking at all the land you control you should be making something like 10K-20K ducats/month from trade :) Besides merchant setup, I would guess you don't have enough light ships.
 

bly08

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Do you mean protect trade in every new world node? I know the comparison is skewed since I was behind on tech with no trade ships, but even if I collected in every home node and had more new world trade power, I don't know if that would 10x my trade income. He also has a similar forcelimit. Even though my effective dev is probably half of total dev I just didn't think that valuable land is this much more valuable than everything else.
 

alexti

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Do you mean protect trade in every new world node? I know the comparison is skewed since I was behind on tech with no trade ships, but even if I collected in every home node and had more new world trade power, I don't know if that would 10x my trade income. He also has a similar forcelimit. Even though my effective dev is probably half of total dev I just didn't think that valuable land is this much more valuable than everything else.
It doesn't matter that much where you protect, it gives the same naval tradition anyway. Since naval tradition is the primary source of trade steering you need it to get high income (and unlikely other sources of trade steering you don't have to compromise anything else). Of course, if you can protect in some useful place that's even better. Looking at your screenshot it seems that you could at least add Ragusa-Venice (or Ragusa-Wien-Venice) to the trade chain. For the income, it's not really a matter of owning the land (with LA or without), but making sure nobody else siphons your trade. TCs are mostly good due to manpower they provide (production income doesn't hurt too, but in comparison to trade income it quickly becomes negligible).
 

Rainbow Mirage

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Ok... this is more ridiculous than I thought. Same income at around the same date, guessing around the same mp/force limit but 2x the development with minimal colonization, which means all the extra land is close to worthless. I didn't have the proper merchant setup but the difference should only be 100-200 ducats/month. The efficiency values also make a difference.

eu4_86.png

With that amount of dev you should be making more than my Burgundy. (Only TC land i got are madagascar and some provinces on cape/west africa. My CN's are from integrating Aragon-Spain)

wJMMTzk.png
 

bly08

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It doesn't matter that much where you protect, it gives the same naval tradition anyway. Since naval tradition is the primary source of trade steering you need it to get high income (and unlikely other sources of trade steering you don't have to compromise anything else). Of course, if you can protect in some useful place that's even better. Looking at your screenshot it seems that you could at least add Ragusa-Venice (or Ragusa-Wien-Venice) to the trade chain. For the income, it's not really a matter of owning the land (with LA or without), but making sure nobody else siphons your trade. TCs are mostly good due to manpower they provide (production income doesn't hurt too, but in comparison to trade income it quickly becomes negligible).

I re-organized the merchant setup here to collecting in every end node plus the two highest valued new world nodes. This is after a WC and no money is left behind in any old world node. At this point I assume trade steering doesn't matter. Home node is still Constantinople. I'm not sure which trade/trade good events have yet to be fired, but at this point what else could I do to boost trade income to 10k? Besides increasing mercantilism that is if that helps at all.

eu4_102.png
 
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alexti

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Trade steering always matters - it's a multiplier to the base of the exponential function! The trade in EU4 is not about collecting all money available, but about exponentiating them. I doubt that collecting in the New World does much good. It's hard to see what is your trade route from the screenshot, but it doesn't look right to me. From Gulf of Aden it should be Hormuz->Basra->Persia->Aleppo->Alexandria->Constantinople->Ragusa->Wien->Saxony->Rheinland->Champagne->Genoa (since you seem to control this whole chain). The rest you already seem to have set up (except that Doan should steer to Bengal).
 

bly08

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I might be misunderstanding something. Does the trade steering bonus modify the incoming/outgoing trade value? If not and it modifies trade power only, wouldn't it have no effect on my trade income if I own 100% of every trade node in the old world? I know there's a transfer bonus I'm missing by collecting in other nodes. But after moving the home node to Genoa and using the setup like you said with full merchant transfer bonus, I still can't get higher than 2k/month. There are both workshops and manufactories in most high value trade good province from Ming to Constantinople.
 
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alexti

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I might be misunderstanding something. Does the trade steering bonus modify the incoming/outgoing trade value? If not and it modifies trade power only, wouldn't it have no effect on my trade income if I own 100% of every trade node in the old world? I know there's a transfer bonus I'm missing by collecting in other nodes. But after moving the home node to Genoa and using the setup like you said with full merchant transfer bonus, I still can't get higher than 2k/month. There are both workshops and manufactories in most high value trade good province from Ming to Constantinople.
Steering doesn't affect trade power, it's just a multiplier of the additional outgoing trade value. So for example increasing the total outgoing trade multiplier by 5% will double the trade income (1.05^15=2.07 assuming weighted average of 15 hops). Workshops don't do anything for trade, but manufactories are very important, especially at the other end of the trade chain (so you really want to have manufactories in Girin, for example).
 

PhoenixG

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Ok... this is more ridiculous than I thought. Same income at around the same date, guessing around the same mp/force limit but 2x the development with minimal colonization, which means all the extra land is close to worthless. I didn't have the proper merchant setup but the difference should only be 100-200 ducats/month. The efficiency values also make a difference.
I think you see it a bit wrong.. Your total income is about the same, but the sources are different. He's making 400 ducat alone from tarrifs, and those dev isn't counted. But you make about double the trade money to compensate that gap and that is calculated into your dev. So yeah.
 

netherlink

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Home node is still Constantinople
That is really a drain in your trade income actually.
First, you basically waste the merchant you have collecting in one of the end-nodes, because there could be your home node instead.
Second, trade value increases the further the "trade travels", so collecting income in an earlier node makes the money less valuable then collecting it in any node behind that one.

This is why you want to have an as long as possible trade chain, which means that it should end in an end-node (if influence there is high enough, that is).

Collecting in New World is the same issue, the money becomes more if you let it travel across the big pond. Apparently ducats like humping while swimming ^^
 

rinehime

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Ok... this is more ridiculous than I thought. Same income at around the same date, guessing around the same mp/force limit but 2x the development with minimal colonization, which means all the extra land is close to worthless. I didn't have the proper merchant setup but the difference should only be 100-200 ducats/month. The efficiency values also make a difference.
I'm confused by what you're trying to compare with the OP here? As Ottos you have access to Trade Companies by default, unless you intentionally aren't using them or moved your capital to Asia.
 

Troopperi

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The "no trade companies on same continent" restriction is too harsh, if there has to be one, the "subcontinent" might be better. Asia has subcontinents of Near East, Persia, India and East Indies for example. But Africa is just one subcontinent (and a continent) so some should be added there. Maybe it wouldn't always make sense but now for example Arabian nations could make trade companies in Indonesia, which sounds reasonable enough to me.
 

bly08

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Steering doesn't affect trade power, it's just a multiplier of the additional outgoing trade value. So for example increasing the total outgoing trade multiplier by 5% will double the trade income (1.05^15=2.07 assuming weighted average of 15 hops). Workshops don't do anything for trade, but manufactories are very important, especially at the other end of the trade chain (so you really want to have manufactories in Girin, for example).

So if I understand correctly, the steering bonus affects the merchant bonus that increases the outgoing trade value in links wherever there is a merchant present, which is almost every node in my case. The Merchant bonus is capped at 11.3%, but having 100% steering bonus boosts it to 22.6%, which means the outgoing value of every node with a transferring merchant is increased by that much from the incoming value. Since I have 100% trade power in every old world node, you're saying that boosting the steering bonus, given it's an exponential multiplier for every node that trade goes through, could 5x my trade income? Note that I am already at 80% steering bonus. There are no CNs in Alaska and Australia, and little to no manufactories in the new world.

I think you see it a bit wrong.. Your total income is about the same, but the sources are different. He's making 400 ducat alone from tarrifs, and those dev isn't counted. But you make about double the trade money to compensate that gap and that is calculated into your dev. So yeah.

Right, but even so, it would mean that colonizing early increases overall power (income/forcelimit) by as much as blobbing 2x the non-TC land in the old world, which I am surprised to find.

I should probably have pointed out that I make more like 600 a month from trade at 0 OE, too.

Another effect of the unimportance of states is that it occurs to me that I might as well unstate most of my land so I can form Italy for the cheaper and faster coring.

OE only affects trade power so it wouldn't lower my income at this point.
 
Last edited:

alexti

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So if I understand correctly, the steering bonus affects the merchant bonus that increases the outgoing trade value in links wherever there is a merchant present, which is almost every node in my case. The Merchant bonus is capped at 11.3%, but having 100% steering bonus boosts it to 22.6%, which means the outgoing value of every node with a transferring merchant is increased by that much from the incoming value. Since I have 100% trade power in every old world node, you're saying that boosting the steering bonus, given it's an exponential multiplier for every node that trade goes through, could 5x my trade income? Note that I am already at 80% steering bonus.
Yes, your understanding is correct. I think it would be hard to get to 22.6%, more realistic goal is something like 15%. That should multiply your income by some factor (depending on what you have now). It also looks like you haven't carpeted Asia with manufactories (otherwise you would probably have a higher income with the current set up)
 

bly08

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Yes, your understanding is correct. I think it would be hard to get to 22.6%, more realistic goal is something like 15%. That should multiply your income by some factor (depending on what you have now). It also looks like you haven't carpeted Asia with manufactories (otherwise you would probably have a higher income with the current set up)

I have a lot in India but not in other parts of Asia. I suspect that bigger CNs with manufactories are also needed to reach that level of income. I know 10k isn't farfetched since smaller European starts can reach those levels with minimum blobbing. Income isn't too important after a certain point during WCs but I was surprised I could only get to 2k even after rearranging merchants.
 

Badesumofu

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I have a lot in India but not in other parts of Asia. I suspect that bigger CNs with manufactories are also needed to reach that level of income. I know 10k isn't farfetched since smaller European starts can reach those levels with minimum blobbing. Income isn't too important after a certain point during WCs but I was surprised I could only get to 2k even after rearranging merchants.

Of my tariffs, about 3/5s come from 3 CNs with very high tariff rates and a lot of manus on stuff like coffee, cocoa, cotton, and sugar. Antilles is the most profitable, about 110 ducats a month. Mexico is great too and I only own less than half that region personally, with my PUs both having good sized CNs in that region.

That also brings to mind - both Castile and Portugal are also very rich and I can access a lot of that money if I need it through Siphon Income. They also make a non-insignificant contribution to my wars.

CNs function a lot like TCs at 100% tariff rate. Essentially you're getting full income value from them if not full FL. They are just a little more annoying to manage since they are separate tags who build stupid shit that you can't just delete to make way for better stuff. LD is generally not hard to deal with since you will be drowning in prestige to dump into placates. Developing their land a bit can be worth it as well especially if it opens up a useful building slot. I actually often find I cap out on MP in my mid games because I don't conquer as much before Imperialism.

I am also losing a significant amount of trade income to my PUs but again that's fine, I generally view that money as not being lost since they are spending it on buildings and troops that are ultimately mine. I control about as much development through subjects and subjects of subjects as I do directly. PU CNs are sort of useful because they can't physically declare independence and you can access the income by siphoning from the PUs.

My problem, or my concern is basically this: TCs are ultimately responsible for more of my income than states. I stopped even making states a while back because I simply have all the money and FL I could ever need and MP are far more scarce in the late stages of a WC. The reason that is a problem is the uneven access to TC land depending on where your capital is. I quite like the suggestion of changing the restriction from continent to sub-continent. That still massively screws Indian tags over, although maybe the ability to get perma-claims on that entire sub-continent sort of makes up for it. India is my second favourite place to play after Western Europe and I was thinking about a Vijayanagar game after I wrap up this WC but I'm put off by realising that France is a better tag to play an India-focused game.