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The_Hawk

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It's no more than what we ask of our soldiers, particularly when we put them in the field poorly equipped, and with limited support from the administration. But c'est la vie, I suppose. Or c'est la morte, perhaps.
 

Sterkarm

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So what you're saying, Pers Dank and Fourgeres, is that we shouldn't work ourselves too hard? That we should let the people of Eutopia work while we sit back and do nothing but preach rhetoric? If you want to be a real help to the Eutopian people, do something besides preach Communism and it's many false successes, Mr. Dank. Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.
 

unmerged(33865)

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My original point was it is not usually a good idea to try to be a minister and an MGA at the same time, as both require a lot of hard work, so combining them is apt to cause a lower of performance at one task or the other. There can be exceptions, but they are rare and carry risks for the person who attempts it.
 

unmerged(37832)

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Lighten up. I'm simply concerned about your well being. Regardless of whether or not it is necessary, working yourself into the ground and to your death is a pretty big price to pay to help your country. Personally I think you can do more alive.

As for your comment that all I do is preach communism, open your eyes. Have you paid no mind to the programs initiated by me in the UCL? It's something truely obnoxious how everybody that reads Animal Farm suddenly becomes a leading expert on communism. You might want to try another title by its author: A Homage to Catalonia.


Edited for language.

Mel
 
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Sterkarm

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Well, Mr. Dank, I may be a bit biased, but I have seen what Communism does, first-hand. I will not allow the youths of Eutopia to grow up as I did. I do not support your ideology in any respect, I believe one should live by his own merit, not by free money. As for you, Mr. Rashaad, most millionaire CEOs got where they are by hard work (except for a few by family connections) and therefore they deserve their position. The poor Indonesian sweatshop worker has grown up in poor living conditions, and we should do things to stop sweatshops, but we should not just throw money at the poor and expect the system to work. Besides, what does Eutopian governmental policy have to do with Indonesia? Very little.

However, while I completely disagree with you on ideology, I would like to offer my support for the elimination of day workers. Our economy needs a lot of time to recover, and we should never allow foreign workers to take the jobs of the tax-paying citizens of Eutopia. I would like to work with you and others on legislation to eliminate the current policy allowing day workers to work in Eutopia without citizenship.
 

unmerged(37832)

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I have seen what Communism does, first-hand. I will not allow the youths of Eutopia to grow up as I did.
I don't doubt that you've seen the effects of Stalinism, but there's quite a big difference between building a great military industrial complex and declaring a state capitalism and achieving socialism. Any true socialists distance themselves from authoritarian figures like Stalin, who, ironically, broke up the soviets and the unions. Solidarnosc, as you no doubt remember, was a workers movement against Soviet domination, and the Hungarian revolution was a primarly a liberal leftist movement against the Soviets to establish a more Yugoslavian styled communism. Needless to say, there are MANY brands of socialism.
I do not support your ideology in any respect, I believe one should live by his own merit, not by free money.
Well what is this arguement but a somewhat milky Social Darwinism? By his own merit? The strongest survive right? Well what is an Indonesian boy in a sweatshop lacking in merit that a, say, upper middle class American isn't? Contrary to whatever social theories you may espouse, the Horatio Algers of this world are sadly only too few. The central injustice of capitalism is that employers make their profits by paying labourers the market value of their labour but less than the value of the commodities they produce - the former being unrelated to the latter. As for giving "free money," I hardly think requiring employers pay their workers a livable wage is giving them unearned money. And as I said before, there are many brands of socialism, with many proposed solutions, and not all of them involve welfare. I suggest you do some research instead of making criticisms based on a very superificial understanding of our philosophy.
As for you, Mr. Rashaad, most millionaire CEOs got where they are by hard work (except for a few by family connections) and therefore they deserve their position.
Well I gather that from this arguement I could construct the following one with the same logic: "Most Indonesians working in sweatshops got where they are from their work and therefore deserve their position." Maybe that's a little unfair. But in any case just ask yourself, which is more difficult: the work of the employer or the employee? Honestly now, how can stress possibly compare with poverty and no healthcare or decent education? And you left out one rather major category on how millionaire CEOs got where they are: luck.
Besides, what does Eutopian governmental policy have to do with Indonesia?
Um, what does Eastern Europe have to do with Eutopian governmental policy?
I would like to offer my support for the elimination of day workers. Our economy needs a lot of time to recover, and we should never allow foreign workers to take the jobs of the tax-paying citizens of Eutopia. I would like to work with you and others on legislation to eliminate the current policy allowing day workers to work in Eutopia without citizenship.
I hate to disappoint you but I'm quite the internationalist and must stay true to my ideals. Instead of just closing our borders to them (which is a pretty shitty idea if you have any hope of Eutopia being one again), the UCL is currently seeking solutions which involve cooperation with the unions of St. Esprit and Tilapia. We'll have more on that later.
 

Sterkarm

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I do not have such a problem with Socialism. I certainly do not support it, but I was talking about Communism mainly, not Socialism. You are a self-proclaimed Communist. The Indonesian sweatshop boy deserves just as good a chance as any other, but it is impossible to give everyone an equal chance. I'm not just talking about the authoritarianism of the Soviet Union, but the effect it had on the economies of the developing nations. Communism simply cannot work in anything but a small community. With Communism there is no incentive. It is like giving everyone in a school class a B no matter what kind of work they do. Will they do any work? No, because they get nothing out of it. Few people are motivated expressly by a duty to their country.

With Capitalism one must work hard or they will get nowhere. Those who cannot work should be compensated, but not those who won't or just don't work. It rewards those who are successful, instead of punishing them like Communism does with a graduated tax. In the Soviet Socialist Republics, the economies collapsed because nobody could afford anything, when machine parts were overpriced, the farmers could not raise prices to compensate, so they simply stopped producing crops as they went bankrupt and the countries had food shortages, causing more unrest and the total collapse of the economy. Communism doesn't work.
 

unmerged(37832)

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Don't talk about the negative effect communism has had on developing nations. Go read a book about neo liberalism and America's exploitation of Latin America during the 20th century up to today. The thing so many capitalists fail to see is that there is not only a disparity between the rich and poor within a single capitalist nation, but great disparity between rich nations and poor nations. How many people starve needlessly every day? It is not a material problem. It's due to the artificial shortages produced by the capitalist system.

I always hear this arguement thrown around that communism offers no incentive for hardwork. This just isn't true. The anarcho-communists and syndicalists in Spain, for example, doubled their productive output while fighting a war on two fronts with nothing but untrained militias against a professional army. They were flanked at all sides by the Stalinists, Republicans, and Fascists. It's amazing what the working man can do when he emancipates himself. In Barcelona the wage system was abolished. 70% of the land was collectivised. Yet they worked harder than they ever had under capitalism. Furthermore, I would argue that capitalism offers no incentive for ethics.

Again, I don't regard the USSR after at the latest 1920 anything near communism. Do you know what the history of the soviets were? Soviets were elected local, municipal, and regional councils in Russia. Before the October revolution in 1917, there were over 900. Soviets were representatives of workers, peasants and soldiers in a given locale, and after the revolution, gained political power as local executive bodies of government. After the Civil War though, they were pretty much eradicated and simply became local extensions of the party. They were what made Russia communist for a time, when the workers were in power, not the bearucratic adminstrator class.

It rewards those who are successful, instead of punishing them like Communism does with a graduated tax.
I don't think the Carnegies and the Vanderbilts of the world could agree with you more. If the lower classes are don't have healthcare, well it's their fault goddamit! They should have worked harder for it!
 

Sterkarm

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No, but should we sacrifice our economy to help the poor and unskilled? Why do you not want me to talk about the negative effects? Is it because they prove your argument wrong? The anarcho-liberals in Spain were at war, a time when patriotism is very high. Also, they were small and they were not organized. One instance in which Communism worked for a brief period in an extremely selective environment, does not prove that it would work in most nations or in Eutopia.

And how does one nation having a communist government help poorer nations? Your comment on what I said (It rewards them instead of punishing...) has no relevance at all. I simply believe that the successful shouldn't be punished for doing well, not that we should make fun of or degrade the poor.

However, the poor and the unsuccessful should stop blaming others (their parents, the other people in society) for their situation and take responsibility for themselves instead of relying on the government to fix their problems. While there are many who do this, there will be none anymore if we simply give them money for putting no effort in.

When looking at Communism and Capitalism, you have to consider the two main points they each present: equality and freedom, respectively. These two are on a sliding scale; force an increase equality, you decrease freedom; grant more freedom, you decrease equality. This is because if one has the freedom to do what he wants, he will usually work harder and therefore often become more successful than his peers. That does not mean that equality cannot be achieved with freedom, just that forced equality (Communism) cannot be achieved along with freedom. However, when you forcefully increase equality, you inherently decrease freedom, as fewer and fewer choices are available to the ambitious man.

Furthermore, you may not consider the USSR communist, but I certainly do. They used many, many staples of Communism: same wages for everyone that government sets, government sets prices for goods, etc., all of which led to the collapse of all the communist countries in Europe.
 
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unmerged(1522)

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All,

as per the rules, "discussions of the real life politics and history of 'other' countries as well as real life organizations are to be avoided, unless they are part of a wider discussion that *clearly* focuses on Eutopia."

By way of a cautionary note, some of the recent comments here have been right on the line. You are welcome to debate the virtues (or lack thereof) of different ideologies, but make sure that the debate clearly centres on Eutopia at all times. Eutopia is a game, not a discussion board for RL-politics. If you want to discuss RL politics and history, take it to the OT or history forums.
 

Josephus I

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PRESS RELEASE FROM THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UPE


EUTOPIA CITY, EUTOPIA ------The president of the United Provinces of Eutopia, Josephus Locke Sergei, today announces that effective immediately Vice President Bob Austri is transferred over to the Cabinet Positiion of MTIA. The president will take over the Cabinet Position of MDIS. Per Austri will retain his title as V-P.

Also, until otherwise announced, the Intelligence Services of Eutopia will temporarily be under the jurisdiction of FLEA and MIDA. This is also effective immediately.

President and MDIS Sergei announces that the Air Force of Eutopia will no longer exist as a separate entity. Instead the Air Force Services will be merged with the Armed Forces of Eutopia, headed by the Chief of The Armed Forces Gen. Levarge.

Capt. Tulp is now named as Chief of the Services of the Navy of Eutopia.

The president also advises the media that a full press conference will be delivered within the next week. More details to follow.


Josephus
 

The_Hawk

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"Yet again, President Sergei shows his disregard for the Constitution and the rule of law. Article 10(b) makes it quite clear that the Minister of Defense shall be responsible for intelligence, and the Constitution makes no provision for the reallotment of portfolios at the President's whim. President Sergei is trying to circumvent the legislature by declaring the repositioning of intelligence into his own hands.

"Further, how can the people be assured that during this reallotment, the High Court will be permitted to continue its duty of monitoring SAW? I call on the Commissioner of Justice to launch an immediate investigation into this matter. People of Eutopia, make your voices heard -- insist that the President follow the Constitution, first and always!"
 

unmerged(33865)

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Per Tilly, your recovery appears to be continuing. I am glad to see that. There is a situation, to provide details of which at this time would interfere with an ongoing investigation of a crime, that the President decided required closer coordination, on a purely operational level, between FLEA and a portion of the intelligence services. There has not been and will not be any interference with High Court's monitoring of SAW. It is not immediately obvious why there would be a concern of that nature, other than your understandable skeptism of your former adversary in the Presidential election and of those that endorse him rather than you.

I have just spoken with some of the intelligence personnel within MDIS and asked them, with respect to all of their other duties, to carry on as before and report things directly to the President, their new MDIS. If you remain concerned about the operational cooperation on one possibly vital matter, then would you be satisfied if the President, acting in his capacity as MDIS, appointed me as the deputy MDIS for Intelligence and Counter-Terrorism, which would give me more powers than I have at the moment, as I have already handed back all that was delegated to me except for the portion involved with this operational cooperation?

As a matter of course, without jeopardizing any of our agents or any still on-going investigations, a full or interim report, depending on the current status, will be provided prior to the voting in the Senate elections. Even before that time, the President said he would hold a press conference within a week. I think we should wait until then, but I expect you will disagree.
 
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I would be satisfied, my good Per, if the President would do as the Constitution commands, and leave the responsibility for intelligence situated as it is. That he is holding a press conference is surely comfort to you. Not to me. The President can cast aside the Constitution at his convenience provided he tells us about why later? I think not.

Seeing as the President is taking over the duties of MDIS personally, I do not know why he would be interested in surrendering his constitutional responsibilities. Unless, of course, he can't hack it. But neither you or I believe that, do we, Per Fourgeres?
 

unmerged(33865)

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The concept of task force, to accomplish a specific objective, should not be a foreign concept to someone who once MDIS. The Federal Law Enforcement portion of MIDA and the intelligence section of MDIS are temporarily acting together as a task force. The President retains overall control. He has placed this temporary task force under my operational control, which he can revoke at time that pleases him. The people in MDIS understand the nature of this relationship and their duties under the constitution. They didn't appear to have any problem or view this is an infringement of their oaths. In short, you seem to actually have a problem with the wording of the announcement, rather than what has actually occured. The intelligence portfolio remains where the constitution says it is.
 

Josephus I

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There is nothing totally wrong with my decision. It is merely an assignment of duties. I agree my press secretary could have phrased it better. Intelligence remains within the realm of MDIS. However I have decided to give my most active Cabinet Minister command over a specific case that requires cooperation with our Intelligence Services and FLEA. For state security purposes, I decided that this is the easiest way of dealing with the matter. Rather than the beaurocratic nightmare that two masters can create. I, as president and as MDIS, remain completly in charge of the matter at hand, but Per Loic is in a better position to deal directly with the issue.

We have the particular matter under control, and a full explanation will follow.


Josephus
 

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"'Also, until otherwise announced, the Intelligence Services of Eutopia will temporarily be under the jurisdiction of FLEA and MIDA.' The words of your press release, Per President. That this is a 'temporary task force' for which you retain ultimate responsibility is a laughable attempt at an excuse. You retain ultimate responsibility for the entire executive branch. That fact is that 'jurisdiction' is tantamount to control. The events of past Terms demand that the Security and Analysis Wing undergo the highest level of scrutiny of any governmental agency -- no other organ of government is subject to direct High Court oversight.

"So you can understand why I am concerned for the rights of our citizens when you simply announce a redistribution of this responsibility without discussing the matter with the legislature. I would like to believe that this is nothing with which we need concern ourselves, but I have seen too many abuses to grant that out of hand. And even if this violates no one's rights, that doesn't make it any less unconstitutional.

"And since I am sure someone will suggest what Per Fourgeres has already implied sooner or later, let me assure you that my vituperative on this matter has nothing to do with my dislike for you personally or professionally, and everything to do with your dislike for our constitutional order."
 

unmerged(33865)

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Per Tilly's continued belaboring of this point, ostenibly draped in constitutional concerns, if it is not politically motivated, is instead apparently ill-informed or mis-guided, perhaps both. The President, in a temporary situation without the full resources of his office available to him, decided that a security matter needed immediate attention, and so caused an announcment to made that was sufficient to permit that to occur. He promised more details within a reasonable time.

After the announcement was made, I briefed security on the matter, clarified that all other aspects of their operations were to remain under direct control of their new Minister, President Josephus Sergei Locke. Thus 'the temporary jurisdiction' effectively ended when that briefing did, or at the latest when the President later announced, having returned to a situation where he had the full resources of his office available to him, that: 'Intelligence remains within the realm of MDIS. However I have decided to give my most active Cabinet Minister command over a specific case that requires cooperation with our Intelligence Services and FLEA.'

As the President said, certain security personnel, assigned by their normal leadership, will be working with FLEA, and perhaps some provincial law enforcement, on one particular matter. Since FLEA began working on this first, the head this task force is at high level within the leadership of FLEA, which is under my ministry. I now have other matters to attend to, such as this case, and am as anxious as you are, if not more so, to get to bottom of the root cause of this matter. We have already promised more information, with a specified timetable. To accelerate that would jeopardize an ongoing investigation.
 
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