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unmerged(4021)

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May 24, 2001
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Mr. Asre, I know you are quite young, so an old fuddy duddy such as myself might not make sense. But Eutopia has had problems over the years with well trained professionals exercising split second life or death decisions. To expect untrained citizens to accurately make the same sort of decision is a poor expectation indeed. I would hate for their to be even one funeral of a parent who accidently shot their child, who they suspected was a criminal. I say leave law enforcement for your professionals and out of the hands of amateurs.
 

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Barkeep49 said:
Mr. Asre, I know you are quite young, so an old fuddy duddy such as myself might not make sense. But Eutopia has had problems over the years with well trained professionals exercising split second life or death decisions. To expect untrained citizens to accurately make the same sort of decision is a poor expectation indeed. I would hate for their to be even one funeral of a parent who accidently shot their child, who they suspected was a criminal. I say leave law enforcement for your professionals and out of the hands of amateurs.
And by removing the right for people to defend their property you would see an increase in criminals robbing homes while people were there. And I don't think I need to tell you how its more dangerous for 2,000 criminals with knives and 1500 with guns to rob homes with people in them then 2500 with guns and 0 with knives. Simply having more home invasions would cause more problems then the exact deadly weapon they are armed with. Now you may believe you could reason with someone who invades your home, but personaly I prefer to take my chances of letting a weapon defend me against a criminal then words alone. And there are many responsible citizens. You may less have faith in our people then me but the truth remains, no guns will make true a situation where more home invasions happen.
 

unmerged(4021)

Chicago Cub Fanatic
May 24, 2001
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Mr. Asre you act as though by not passing this legislation we will have MORE problems. That seems foolish. I know of no current problems that could be better solved by implementing this legislation. I too can make up numbers if you desire as we argue the relative merits of our positions. Please such actions are beneath someone of your stature and importance.
 

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Barkeep49 said:
Mr. Asre you act as though by not passing this legislation we will have MORE problems. That seems foolish. I know of no current problems that could be better solved by implementing this legislation. I too can make up numbers if you desire as we argue the relative merits of our positions. Please such actions are beneath someone of your stature and importance.
The issue I am argueing has little to do with this direct bill and more to do with the overall issue of gun control. Now your wit may have left you for today because of age since you seem unable to focus on what I am saying but its the overall issue that is more important. I am not argueing for or against this bill but against the general viewpoints of people who view strict gun controls as the way to go. And your party is made up of such people.
 

unmerged(4021)

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May 24, 2001
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Mr. Asre I'm willing to be dollars to donughts (not that I'd eat them) that I am nearly as healthy as you are. I might not beat you in a race, but I'll take my health any day of the week and twice on Sunday and need no reminders to take medication. My focus is just fine, and my disposition is such that I am far more likely to mock myself than resort to cheap shots against you.

As for your actual point, I will gladly save the debate over general gun control, for another day as I have a feeling the GA will get to take up such issues this term considering the general mood of Eutopia these days. Thank you and good day sir.
 

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Barkeep49 said:
Mr. Asre I'm willing to be dollars to donughts (not that I'd eat them) that I am nearly as healthy as you are. I might not beat you in a race, but I'll take my health any day of the week and twice on Sunday and need no reminders to take medication. My focus is just fine, and my disposition is such that I am far more likely to mock myself than resort to cheap shots against you.

As for your actual point, I will gladly save the debate over general gun control, for another day as I have a feeling the GA will get to take up such issues this term considering the general mood of Eutopia these days. Thank you and good day sir.
You brought up age first and I have said nothing about medications. Now you are the one who missed my point, I am not the one who got confused. And you did start out with a cheap shot by insulting my youth. You may not like the fact that I am set up to be an important part of our nations future but as of now, it is the truth. You were important to our history, I am important to the future. The present is where we met, and right now we are debating the merits of gun control. If you want to put off the debate that is fine by me but I am not a member of the GA so it seems to me you are trying to avoid debating the issue with me.
 

unmerged(31558)

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Jul 6, 2004
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The issue I am argueing has little to do with this direct bill and more to do with the overall issue of gun control. Now your wit may have left you for today because of age since you seem unable to focus on what I am saying but its the overall issue that is more important. I am not argueing for or against this bill but against the general viewpoints of people who view strict gun controls as the way to go. And your party is made up of such people.

Allowing people to become legalized vigilantes meaning allowing people to freely kill is not reasonable. We must fight crime and homelessness by other means through education and opportunity, not the fear of death. All able minded humans have the right to live, a criminal should not be shot on the spot. Instead they must be arrested, convicted, and rehabilitated so that they can furfill their potential in society.
 

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Awakened said:
Allowing people to become legalized vigilantes meaning allowing people to freely kill is not reasonable. We must fight crime and homelessness by other means through education and opportunity, not the fear of death. All able minded humans have the right to live, a criminal should not be shot on the spot. Instead they must be arrested, convicted, and rehabilitated so that they can furfill their potential in society.
The vast majority of people who would excercise their right to defend their homes by a firearm are far more responsible then you believe, and are most certainly not vigilantes. And to say killing would be free would mean we could kill one another in this very setting, fairly loose gun control laws would not allow you or me to shoot someone in public. And as far as homes, as long as the bill is written well there is little reason to believe many if any non-responsible citizens would get involved in such an act as utilizing a firearm in home defense. Also despite such a utopian idea, very few criminals are ever truely rehabilitated.

Also I hope I don't need to remind you that by far not all criminals are homeless.
 

unmerged(31558)

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Jul 6, 2004
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The vast majority of people who would excercise their right to defend their homes by a firearm are far more responsible then you believe, and are most certainly not vigilantes. And to say killing would be free would mean we could kill one another in this very setting, fairly loose gun control laws would not allow you or me to shoot someone in public. And as far as homes, as long as the bill is written well there is little reason to believe many if any non-responsible citizens would get involved in such an act as utilizing a firearm in home defense. Also despite such a utopian idea, very few criminals are ever truely rehabilitated.

Also I hope I don't need to remind you that by far not all criminals are homeless.

People need an effective way to defend themselves but they do not need weapons that exceed the power of a revolver pistol. I believe that people who kill criminals are just as accountable as a criminal who kills an innocent person. They should be questioned and the case evaluated, not ignored which would happen with the said bill being debated at the moment.
 

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Awakened said:
People need an effective way to defend themselves but they do not need weapons that exceed the power of a revolver pistol. I believe that people who kill criminals are just as accountable as a criminal who kills an innocent person. They should be questioned and the case evaluated, not ignored which would happen with the said bill being debated at the moment.
So then you admit having a weapon to defend a home and being legally allowed to shoot an invader is the right thing? Regarding your middle point, which seems to contradict your first point, then you would prosecute someone who shot dead a criminal who was sneaking around his house with an obvious weapon and nearing his daughters room? That would be a pretty dark day for the average citizens and a very happy day for criminals. Also your last point seems to say that you believe when a police officer shoots a criminal dead that the police officer is by defult in the wrong and should be jailed. Not all situations allow a criminal to be arrested, detained and properly questioned.
 

unmerged(31558)

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Jul 6, 2004
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So then you admit having a weapon to defend a home and being legally allowed to shoot an invader is the right thing? Regarding your middle point, which seems to contradict your first point, then you would prosecute someone who shot dead a criminal who was sneaking around his house with an obvious weapon and nearing his daughters room? That would be a pretty dark day for the average citizens and a very happy day for criminals. Also your last point seems to say that you believe when a police officer shoots a criminal dead that the police officer is by defult in the wrong and should be jailed. Not all situations allow a criminal to be arrested, detained and properly questioned.

I never denied that having the right to defend oneself with a small firearm was wrong. No, I would want known everything that is possible to know about the situation. There have been cases in the United States for example where black gang members have intruded onto the home of a white supremacist. The white supremacist defended his home but went further and basically tortured the gang member[ooc:I dont have a source, ive only heard of it but it isnt farfetched] by beating him senselessly after it was apparent that the man was not able to intrude in his home. The bill in discussion seems to be too lax on investigating the situation, it seems to dismiss cases instead of making sure that everything is on the straight and narrow. I simply want the police to treat every case of a killing the same which would determine if a man is guilty or not.

Wouldnt you want everybody at the scene of the shooting questioned to make sure that the intruder wasnt invading a home for personal reasons that could stretch into dirty business deals for example? I am advocating responsible and attentive law, not vigilante pandering law.
 

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Awakened said:
I never denied that having the right to defend oneself with a small firearm was wrong. No, I would want known everything that is possible to know about the situation. There have been cases in the United States for example where black gang members have intruded onto the home of a white supremacist. The white supremacist defended his home but went further and basically tortured the gang member[ooc:I dont have a source, ive only heard of it but it isnt farfetched] by beating him senselessly after it was apparent that the man was not able to intrude in his home. The bill in discussion seems to be too lax on investigating the situation, it seems to dismiss cases instead of making sure that everything is on the straight and narrow. I simply want the police to treat every case of a killing the same which would determine if a man is guilty or not.

Wouldnt you want everybody at the scene of the shooting questioned to make sure that the intruder wasnt invading a home for personal reasons that could stretch into dirty business deals for example? I am advocating responsible and attentive law, not vigilante pandering law.
Indeed I would not want the police handicapped in the slightest way, however your story of the white supremacist is impossible here, we don't have that sort of race issue nor is that story likely ever duplicated since then, were it to be true. However the police also should not be forced to spend too much time at scenes were it is obvious that the person defending their home did exactly what they were legally allowed to do with no infringment on the law.

Regarding that bill, again I am not the in GA and am here not with the expressed purpose of debating that bill. The rights of gun owners as a whole is what matters to me, and if the ELP is for the right of both armed citizens and that responsible citizens are in the right to defend their homes with lethal force, should the situation call for it. I am sure the police would rather have to deal with the paperwork of a successful defense of their home rather then a criminal with superior force harming either physically or mentally a fellow responsible citizen. Afterall former police officers are more then capable of knowing when is the right time to draw a gun to defend their home. Obviously that is a stretched example, however it is far more likely then your white supremacist example.
 

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The law comes down to a basic question, who do we give the benefit of the doubt to? Do we trust the instincts and judgment of a law abiding homeowner wishing to defend himself? Or do we trust an individual who has already shown a blatant disregard for the law and for the rights and well being of others?

The ELP seems to favor protecting criminals over the actual victims. We can hammer out details like investigations and such during the legislative process, but the overall intent of this bill is a good one. To ensure that Eutopian citizens who protect themselves from criminals are safe from prosection.
 

unmerged(4021)

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Actually you are right Jake about the fact that it is an issue of trust. Who do you trust, Jake, an illinformed, untrained, adrelaine filled homeowner, or a well trained professional police officer? I vote for the police officer every time. I'm proud of our police and you should be too. The right's utter lack of regaurd for our law enforcement officials is very disheartening.
 

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Dr. Glasser, I'm not sure who Jake is, but it seems you're responding to me, so I'll reply in turn. Of course we would all prefer for trained police to deal with the issue of crime. However, even the best police force in the world cannot be every where at every time. I don't know what the average response time is in Eutopia, but even if it is five minutes, that is still a long time to go without protection. A criminal who is so inclined can cause a lot of death and destruction in five minutes. I don't see any problem with enpowering our citizens to protect themselves when neccessary.
 

unmerged(4021)

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My apologies Per Leary (OOC: Still getting the hang of everyone's name and I skimmed down into CA's sig and saw Jake). I have called others by the wrong name before, and hope you accept my apologies.

But to get to the point an out of control citizen can cause a lot of death and destruction in five minutes as well.
 

unmerged(28894)

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May 9, 2004
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"Our citizens are already empowered to defend themselves. What they're not empowered to do is to shoot first and ask questions later, which is what the bills proposes. Don't act like the Left is putting forward a radical new proposal here. We just object to your paranoia, to your lack of confidence in the police, and to your belief that this is the Wild West and you are Wyatt Earp.

The homeowner is vastly more likely to get the benefit of the doubt if he shoots to protect himself. That's not what this bill is for. This bill allows him to shoot even when there is no need to do so.

And as I said, Per Asre, organised crime has little interest in the contents of your house. It makes its money by corruption and illegal drugs. Burglars are much more likely to be desperate people, believing they need to rob to survive. If they're robbing someone with a gun, they're just going to try and get a gun by hook or by crook. Or, in Per Zhokhyen's ideal world, for 50 cents on a street corner.

Guns are not toys. They are not the solution to all your problems. They do not bring peace. And the man who shoots an unarmed thief in the head is just as much a criminal as the thief.

That's the issue here."
 

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No thief of any intelligence will go into a home without at least a knife, since all it would take is a home owner or a teenager grabbing a kitchen knife to overpower an unarmed thief. Second, despite the lefts beliefs, most criminals are not simply people who society cast down and doesn't care for. I am fairly confident that the police would back me up in saying that most thieves are people who simply believe crime is an easier way to earn money then work. And by trying to say I have a lack of confidence in the police, you just prove how uninformed and nieve you are. Do you honestly believe ANY person would serve as the AG if he didn't have full confidence in the police? And while I never mentioned organized crime, you have completely ignored what I said about retired police officers, one of many class of citizens who would be fully capable of knowing when to shoot first and ask questions later.
 

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"I'm really sick of your efforts to paint thieves, robbers, burglars, and muggers as innocent, downtrodden victims of society who deserve our sympathy. No matter what their personal situation is, it is never an excuse to turn to crime or to violate the rights and well being of others."

"This bill does not allow a homeowner to shoot without need or cause, it specifically outlines that a citizen may use lethal force to defend himself, his family, and his property. I fail to see how that is unreasonable."
 

unmerged(31558)

Second Lieutenant
Jul 6, 2004
128
0
"I'm really sick of your efforts to paint thieves, robbers, burglars, and muggers as innocent, downtrodden victims of society who deserve our sympathy. No matter what their personal situation is, it is never an excuse to turn to crime or to violate the rights and well being of others."

"This bill does not allow a homeowner to shoot without need or cause, it specifically outlines that a citizen may use lethal force to defend himself, his family, and his property. I fail to see how that is unreasonable."

Per Leary, you're putting words into people's mouths. Nobody is saying that criminals are either innocent or downtrodden victims. We shouldnt treat criminals as the enemy because it would only make it more difficult for us to rehabiliate them which is the ideal objective of prisons. Even if somebody is a mugger or thief, they can still be made productive members of society.

What if an enraged home owner continues to beat the intruder even after being incapacitated? Under the bill that we are discussing, the home owner would not even be questioned. This is would be a grave injustice against all people in Eutopia.