Towards a Real Technology system

[Closet Skeleton]

The essential problem with all westernisation debates isn't the westernisation mechanic or tech speeds at all. Its the technology system and the fact that there isn't really one.

Sure there are linear levels that go up in three categories, but this system doesn't do much apart from provide a bare minimum sense of national progress. The levels have names that are basically redundant and add no real flavour. Therefore it wouldn't be innacurate to say that there is no tech system in EUIV, just a abstract national progress mechanic that barely hints at the illusion of technological development. In order to improve westernisation and advancement, this whole status quo needs to be entirely exorcised.

So, what would we need from a replacement system.

1. Flavour. It has to feel like the developments of the 15th-19th centuries. Even abstract mechanics need inspiration and theming from history.

2. Monarch point integration. Sorry anti-mana dudes, getting rid of monarch points will have to be an EUV thing (though a EUIV with an overhauled tech system would essentially be a EUV).

3. Sense of progress. You need a feeling like 'we've come a long way'.

4. Non-linearity. This would get rid of the need for westernisation and allow diverse kinds of state organisation. Advancement would be not just about progress but about choosing the direction you want to take.

Ironically, my main idea of how to turn a abstract national progress system into a real technology system is to get rid of technology entirely and double down on the national progress aspect. Technological advancement would be taken out of national hands entirely and be handled by events, countries only choosing what technologies to adopt after they are invented by non-state actors.

Government tech:

The government tech and the old government type system would be completely merged into a new system that also has some of the flavour that existed in the old EUIII slider system.

A government would consist of a set of empty slots, into which institutions and policies would be buyable by the country at the cost of monarch points. New choices unlock as the game progresses. New concept of government will have a chance of being discovered based on advisors, tech group, geographic location, existing techs adopted, monarch scores and trade power. Once a policy/institution is invented the inventor will be able to adopt it at a discount and it will also be available to other countries. Countries in other tech groups will have to import the idea for an extra cost, this will be a form of westernisation and will not be a one off thing, but something that has to happen constantly.

Examples of Policies and Institutions:

Bureaucracy:
Clerical Administration (European start)
Nepotism
Tribal Administration
Iqta Administration
Devishirme system
Spanish Inquisition/Reformed Catholic bureaucracy
Anti-clericalism/Revolutionary bureaucracy
Civil Service Examinations (Chinese start)

Agricultural Policy
Manorialism
Hydraulic Despotism
Early modern serfdom
Enclosure reform
American crop cultivation

Research Policy
Church schools
Humanistic Education
Jesuit Education
Various stuff for non-Europeans
Foreign advisors (the new westernisation, bonus to importing European policies)
Age of Exploration (the European equivalent to westernisation, makes it easier to steal Asian policies)
Enlightenment Empiricism
Modern Universities

Government Policy
Tribal Council
Early Parliamentary system
Confederation
Royal Household
Viceroys
Cabinet system
Absolutism
Constitutional Republicanism

Military Policy
Feudal Levy
Iqta Levy
Reward through looting (early Ottoman and steppe horde)
Janissary corps
Rajputs
Warrior cults (Jaguar and Eagle Warriors)
Tribal system
Semi-professional army
Condiotorre and late medieval mercenaries
Landsknechts and early modern mercenaries
Professional Armies
Sikh militarism
Purely Professional Army (high quality, low quantity)
Reserves and Semi-professional army
Levy en Mass

Economic Policy
State Guilds
Magdburg Laws
Chinese laissez-faire
Merchant Plutocracy
Modern Finance

None of these policies are linear, you can freely spend monarch power to move between them as they become available.

Government types will not be things you choose, but rather labels that represent the general thrust of your policies and institutions.

Military tech:
The flawed unit choice system would be merged in with and expanded into the military tech.

Infantry Policy (pike formations, pike and shock, Highland Charge, Maurican reforms, napoleonic squares + RotW versions)
Infantry Weapons (bronze and obsidian -> Iron and Steel-> Early Firearms ->Arquebus ->Flintlocks ->Rifles)

Cavalry Policy (shock tactics, harassment tactics, combined arms tactics + more advanced versions)
Cavalry Weapons (we have no horses, we're Amerindian -> Late Medieval Plate armour -> Pistols and advanced plate armour -> Carbines -> Dragoons and Curaisers)

Artillery Policy (late medieval siege tactics, early battlefield artillery, Hussite gunpowder tactics, early Chinese artillery tactics, Mobile Artillery )
Artillery tech (late medieval siege weapons -> Early Chinese Artillery -> Early European metallurgy-> Early East Asian Rocketry [Hwatcha style]-> mature European metallurgy-> late European metallurgy-> horse artillery -> Advanced Rockets [Tippu Sultan style])

Naval Policy (various tactics from the period)
Navy Weapons (various ship types)

Rather than being simply better than each other, military policies would have match-up advantages. Many non-European policies would be disadvantaged against European ones at first until they adopt foreign tactics. Some would simply be better, but even stronger ones could be disadvantaged by a bad match up.

Changing any military weapons or policies will reduce army tradition and cost military points. Monarch skill, army tradition, ideas and advisors will give a chance of inventing a weapon or policy, then it will be available to other nations.

Diplomatic Tech:
No ideas right now. Probably tied into and replace merchantalism some how.

I feel the advantage of this system is that it will get rid of the not very interesting (to me) level up system and expand the more interesting and flavourful but too simplistic and of little effect system of unit and government types. It would also bring back some of the flavour of the old sliders where you felt like you were choosing the direction of your nation and society without the simplicity that made sliders kind of dull after the third time.

 

[aQuilaSwe]

Overall a nice idea and would make the technology system more interesting. The problem I see though is that EUIV is a "numbers game" and not a "I use this tactic which is better than your tactic game". How will tactics, discipline, morale, combat modifiers, and all the other numbers increase over time and scale between different tech groups?

 

[Dutchman251]

This is a better direction indeed. However, this is such a total revamp of the system (which should include ideas, too), that I think it's not suited for EUIV. This is EU5 stuff. Separate tech trees would serve EUIV better

 

[GiftGruen]

So you basically say: Throw current tech system out the window and use more idea-like progress, with more ideas becoming available over time? Just without the idea groups restriction of having to take seven of everything? Or did I misunderstand?

 

[BrokenSky]

I think there should still be linear techs, but I really like the government system with pick-you-own up and down sides. I'm assuming each thing has both up and down sides?

Weapons and unlocked tectics for example would be handled using military tech. Concepts in government, idea slots and production efficiency by mil tech, colony range, trade range etc by dip-tech.

This would merge really well with the separate tech trees suggestion aQuilaSwe made.

 

[Scottx105]

I'd like this over the current tech system, unfortunately this would require MAJOR redesigning of the game and TBH I don't see any chance this will happen, maybe next Europa Universalis.

 

[Closet Skeleton]

The problem I see though is that EUIV is a "numbers game" and not a "I use this tactic which is better than your tactic game".

Pips and unit types disagree.

On the whole you're right, but there are contradictions here and there.

Military idea group selection does has an element of 'tactic A verses tactic B' but then you end up with all of them anyway eventually and it becomes a non-choice.

So you basically say: Throw current tech system out the window and use more idea-like progress, with more ideas becoming available over time? Just without the idea groups restriction of having to take seven of everything? Or did I misunderstand?

That wasn't my intention, no. I was thinking something more like CivIV's Civics (or my misunderstanding of them since I never got far in CivIV) just with slots. The amount of slots would stay the same, only the options would increase.

I did realise that my system over-lapped terribly with ideas though.

I'd like this over the current tech system, unfortunately this would require MAJOR redesigning of the game and TBH I don't see any chance this will happen, maybe next Europa Universalis.

Art of War shows that a major redesign is possible and something that interests the developers.

I'm not holding out any hope, just posting ideas to get them out of my head.

This is a better direction indeed. However, this is such a total revamp of the system (which should include ideas, too), that I think it's not suited for EUIV. This is EU5 stuff. Separate tech trees would serve EUIV better

This would merge really well with the separate tech trees suggestion aQuilaSwe made.

I don't see how, since both ideas solve the same problem in completely different ways.

My problem with AQuilaSwe's idea is that its a lot of work but is still a half measure. When a building starts to collapse due to bad foundations, you don't fix the building unless it has some cultural value that says you can't just knock it down.

 

[BrokenSky]

I don't see how, since both ideas solve the same problem in completely different ways.

My problem with AQuilaSwe's idea is that its a lot of work but is still a half measure. When a building starts to collapse due to bad foundations, you don't fix the building unless it has some cultural value that says you can't just knock it down.

I'm not suggesting using both, I'm suggesting using something which takes features from both. Certain policies might not be available to all tech groups, and might not be available at the same time, for example itqa being limited to Muslim or Anatolian tech, with Muslim religion. Similarly the weapon system would work well with the modernization mechanics suggested to replace westernization.

I think I understand the basis of tech you have, with techs being discovered by event and spreading outwards, but from a game-play perspective I feel something more controllable would be better.
That said implementing a system a bit like Victoria 2's innovations might be more interesting; in order to discover an innovation, you must have the prerequisite tech level and fulfill certain criteria. if you do, you might make the innovation by event. Certain conditions would lengthen or shorten the MTTH. Once it had happened, the innovation would spread out from the discovering country. If you haven't unlocked the innovation you can still get the event even if someone else has unlocked it, or you can get it by the stuff spreading. Calculus for example. These innovations would give bonuses such as unlocking policies to decreasing idea cost (Renaissance in Italy?). Getting the spawning event would give a small amount of prestige.
Ideally most tech levels would have one or more innovations, but the requirements would be exclusive (e.g. must be in Chinese tech group, or must have a philosopher etc). Most would give relatively small bonuses. +10% global trade power for example. These could replace ahead of time bonuses?

 

[Scottx105]

Art of War shows that a major redesign is possible and something that interests the developers.

I'm not holding out any hope, just posting ideas to get them out of my head.

Art of war was not a complete redesign of a major feature, it was the addition of a feature. Adding features to a game which already has the ground work for it isn't too difficult, but stripping out an existing feature and redesigning that feature to then fit within the rest of the game is difficult and time consuming, I know this from my own experience as I'm at university studying game development technology. So instead of throwing out the existing system, try and figure a way of modifying the existing tech tree/technology system to make it better, it will by no means be as good as a complete redesign, but as long as it is good enough then that's all that matters.

 

[Closet Skeleton]

I'm not suggesting using both, I'm suggesting using something which takes features from both. Certain policies might not be available to all tech groups, and might not be available at the same time, for example itqa being limited to Muslim or Anatolian tech, with Muslim religion. Similarly the weapon system would work well with the modernization mechanics suggested to replace westernization.

I don't think that will be that necessary in most cases. The cost of adopting policies will be based on the whether or not the policy has been adopted by your neighbours, allies and trade flow (maybe active merchants). Adopting a policy from a country with a different religion could have a extra cost. Adopting Iqta as a non-Muslim country would be too expensive and not worth it so why ban it?

Some of them would need to be limited. No Jesuits for non-Catholics. One possibility was just adding a Research policy for every RotW religion (Confucian Scholars, Buddhist Scholars, Bhramin Scholars, etc. Except Shinto, who would have to use Confucians or Buddhists. Buddhists would have to be available to Confucian states as well.

The Weapon system was just to add a level of equipment to the system and incorporate the various fire modifiers back in after ditching the normal way of advancing them.

I think I understand the basis of tech you have, with techs being discovered by event and spreading outwards, but from a game-play perspective I feel something more controllable would be better.

My system was basically a replacement for ahead of time bonuses and is more controllable than that at least.

That said implementing a system a bit like Victoria 2's innovations might be more interesting

Vicky 2's inventions were my inspiration.

Art of war was not a complete redesign of a major feature, it was the addition of a feature.

It was the addition of a feature (zones of control and limited forts) so different that it was in effect a complete redesign. Which is a lot easier than a complete redesign while having a similar effect.

So instead of throwing out the existing system, try and figure a way of modifying the existing tech tree/technology system to make it better, it will by no means be as good as a complete redesign, but as long as it is good enough then that's all that matters.

Its less work in the long run if you only have to do it once.

We've already seen a minor modification of westernisation (it used to fill up based on stability not monarch power) and it pleased nobody. Dancing round the base problems another time isn't without its own risks and costs.

 

[FurorGermanicus]

Hmm I guess victoria2 made it a bit more like you want it