• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Neoptolemos

Feersum Endjinn
68 Badges
Apr 20, 2008
356
21
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
That's not a problem with disappearing cores, that's a problem with how easy it is to integrate far-flung unions and then to subsequently culture-shift the provinces. The solution to one broken system is not to break another only tangentially related system.

Well, I did say I thought it was the "only" problem. I think it's a good change, I'm just pointing out that there are other, more-than-tangentially-related systems that currently keep an effective fix from being as good as it should be. Do you have thoughts about what to do with silly PUs? The general feeling around the forum seems to be that a broadly available CB to contest and/or break them is begging to be exploited, but I don't know if I agree.

I once had a game that was Russia-Hungary-Great Britain-Spain. It was unbelievably terrifying, not least because the only available response from me was to ally and pray.
 

zodium

Person
31 Badges
Sep 9, 2013
3.313
13
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
I have to go to bed, but I will definitely try to summarize ideas in the OP tomorrow, as I did in the Great Schism thread. Good ideas so far, keep it up.
 

Vishaing

MM Prime Minister in Exile
12 Badges
Jan 25, 2008
1.420
723
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
I think the best way to address the Silly PUs is a three-fold step;
1: CB to break the Union from outside (See: war of Spanish Succession).
2: Get rid of the "Vassal" attitude as it prevents the AI from thinking rationally. I think a lot of PUs would stop working if the country in question could properly keep their Union/Vassal Overlord declared as a Rival.
3: Make the AI actually try to break free on their own. Right now Vassals are completely ironclad affairs. The AI NEVER tries to break free, or if they do, I haven't seen it in several games with dozens of vassals. Unions are only very slightly more likely to be broken. I once saw an AI Ming happily twiddle their thumbs in a Union under an AI Manchu long enough for the Manchu to integrate them. While it was pretty cool seeing the Qing actually form, the path the game took to get there was ridiculous.

Of course, with Invasion of Paradise and their Colonial Vassals being able to and actually revolting I'm hoping we're getting number 3.
 

RaptorCommander

Captain
104 Badges
Jan 24, 2009
487
151
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • March of the Eagles
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Age of Wonders
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
Some of these ideas sound good but please keep in mind STOMPING REBELS IS NOT A FUN GAME MECHANIC.

What is fun is making meaningful decisions and using limited resources wisely.

I do have a few ideas but don't have time now to articulate them, just now.
 
Last edited:

AndrewT

The Full Monty Python
Moderator
116 Badges
Jun 29, 2001
85.372
3.594
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • Gettysburg
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Lead and Gold
  • Legio
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Lost Empire - Immortals
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Pirates of Black Cove
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Ancient Space
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Darkest Hour
  • Dungeonland
  • East India Company Collection
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
A thread's OP has the privilege of defining his thread's topic and scope. In this case he has clearly defined it quite strictly; please either stay within those bounds, do not post in the thread, or start your own thread on your preferred topic.
 

Vedinu

Suuriruhtinas
23 Badges
Sep 12, 2013
771
362
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • March of the Eagles
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV
A thread's OP has the privilege of defining his thread's topic and scope. In this case he has clearly defined it quite strictly; please either stay within those bounds, do not post in the thread, or start your own thread on your preferred topic.

Perhaps yes, but he could've asked us to leave or something, instead of reporting.
 

unmerged(235784)

Sergeant
5 Badges
Nov 24, 2010
75
0
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Magicka
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
Some of these ideas sound good but please keep in mind STOMPING REBELS IS NOT A FUN GAME MECHANIC.

What is fun is making meaningful decisions and using limited resources wisely.

I do have a few ideas but don't have time now to articulate them, just now.

Regular rebel stomping isn't fun, true. The addition of really big ones that are big enough that they'd be difficult to defeat. I'm not advocating more of the annoying small rebellions but rather having a few, big ones.

EDIT
I should clarify: Most of the time you won't experience rebellions but when they do occur, they'll be a real challenge. Perhaps the easiest way to accomplish this is by making this kind of rebellion event based?
 
Last edited:

HansBaer

Lt. General
20 Badges
Aug 16, 2013
1.337
443
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Prison Architect
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
- Particularist Rebels with cored provinces and cores on other ones need to spawn later on. The ones we have now are just a lame annoyance
- Let AI nations "guarantee" other nations vassals / PUs and implement a high chance form them to want to break free if that is the case. (Decreased by very good relations, same culture group, etc.. but NOT by relative size to overlord) Without the possibilities to let a PUed / vassalized nation get allies or be guaranteed, restoring a union after a violent breakup would be nothing more then a mild annoyance because the overlord would call in all his allies automatically.
- Either a complete overhaul of the culture change mechanic or just taking it out completely (the MNS-Mod does this, and it is much better then vanilla. If you want to conquer other culture one should live with the consequences, not press 1 button). For example, the basques should be a constant pain in the ass, converting them almost impossible, so a Castile player might actually consider to make them a vassal and be done with it. Generally much more region/culture specific flavor is needed.

It seems like most of the late game boredom issues are at least partly tied to the flawed (or rather non existent) culture mechanics. Take culture changing out until it is overhauled or at least make it cost all 3 monarch points, maybe at a reduced rate!
 

Buttfart

Corporal
2 Badges
Jul 6, 2013
26
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
I agree with the three changes OP proposed. Non-accepted cultures should be VERY willing to revolt. To balance this, I think all 3 types of monarch points should be usable to culture-flip. Diplomacy = flipping peacefully. Admin = flipping by gerrymandering your population into the province. Military = genocide then replacing them with an accepted culture. And maybe make it possible to spend a large amount of points to simply add a culture to be accepted, regardless of its base-tax. Like, you dump a crapton of diplo points convincing the Cosmopolitanes that the English are cool cats and should be accepted by them.
 

unmerged(804580)

Lt. General
3 Badges
Sep 10, 2013
1.309
3
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
Regular rebel stomping isn't fun, true. The addition of really big ones that are big enough that they'd be difficult to defeat. I'm not advocating more of the annoying small rebellions but rather having a few, big ones.

EDIT
I should clarify: Most of the time you won't experience rebellions but when they do occur, they'll be a real challenge. Perhaps the easiest way to accomplish this is by making this kind of rebellion event based?

I kind of have to agree with RaptorCommander though. Rebels are nuisance rather than challenge. The only time I felt that the rebels posed interesting challenge was the pre-patch Kirishitan when people screamed it was broken, and that's because I wasn't too used to the game and hadn't seen anything better yet. If the rebels of such size and frequency start spawning again I'd rather ragequit. Especially if the "large rebels" spawn in the middle of nowhere in the Pacific, your one-province coastal trading post on the Congolese coast or anywhere hard-to-reach places. It'd be hard and difficult to defeat, but instad of challenge I'm sure I'd be rather irritated. (Although, based on the OP's post the proposed rebel chain event is about the provinces with different cultures, so I'd assume they won't happen in colonized provinces)

If it spawns the nation, you're put in a war, with some variation of the Independence CB from the revolt state.. then it might be more interesting, as long as you're assured to be given the warscore reduction to demand full annexation or vassalization in one war. (Imagine what would happen if you integrated a colonial power and they respawn in such a way... a cap around 80% would be more than enough)

I don't know how the others would feel, but to me it's just that... I can't really see rebels, unlike countries, as respectable enemies to fight against. To make a rough analogy, it sounds like adding a whole bunch of goombas instead of making the boss battle with Bowser more interesting and call it "challenging."
 

heraklonas

Sergeant
3 Badges
Feb 28, 2006
80
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • 500k Club
I agree with the three changes OP proposed. Non-accepted cultures should be VERY willing to revolt. To balance this, I think all 3 types of monarch points should be usable to culture-flip. Diplomacy = flipping peacefully. Admin = flipping by gerrymandering your population into the province. Military = genocide then replacing them with an accepted culture. And maybe make it possible to spend a large amount of points to simply add a culture to be accepted, regardless of its base-tax. Like, you dump a crapton of diplo points convincing the Cosmopolitanes that the English are cool cats and should be accepted by them.

please give me one example of genocide in the respective time frame.
Besides, considering the policy of PI in HOI3 I doubt such mechanics can even be considered..
What most people forget: even the impressive influence of French culture outside of France (in the aristocracy and upper class) never led to a proper "culture conversion" - not even in the Wallonia (!). Only massive migration affected such effects, like in Northern Ireland or Alsace. But that should cost something in the core (tax and manpower loss).
 

unmerged(235784)

Sergeant
5 Badges
Nov 24, 2010
75
0
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Magicka
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
@Karavinka
Mmm something would have to be done about rebel spawning in hard to reach places I suppose. Since they're supposed to endanger the capital, it would make sense if they only spawn in a province that has a land connection to the capital. Would big rebellions (as in, a few 20k rebel stacks spawning in provinces near one another) be like goombas? Well, maybe if the goombas started breating fire... Sure, the country AI is smarter than the rebel AI but it still isn't very hard to outsmart it. Giving rebels large stacks would imo go some way to briding the difference between said rebels and national armies. As the OP mentioned, large-scale rebellions would probably be exploited the enemy AI declaring war on the empire.

As I have written in a previous post, I'd like the game to simulate the insurrections and the infighting that have almost always accompanied large multicultural empires historically. One more ambitious way of accomplishing it would be to add the rebel states from CK2 and Rome. I know from your previous posts that you(Karavinka) aren't overly interested in historical plausability. Therefore I understand if you feel that an added rebel mechanism is not the best way of increasing difficulty. I personally would on the other hand like any events/modifiers that increase late-game difficulty to feel historically correct.
 

RogerWilco

Colonel
45 Badges
Aug 15, 2013
813
550
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Surviving Mars
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
I don't have an answer to the whole discussion, I'm not experienced enough in EU4 yet.

I do have a few suggestions that might make sense.

1) Cores never expire, but you can remove them if you have cored the province yourself at some cost.
Maybe give France a NI that makes it easier, and make it harder for Austria. Or make it cheap on same culture group, but harder on other cultures (but not impossible). In this way you can have scenarios where you have an indivisible France, and other times France might decide not to remove the cores of its former vassals, maybe because it has a string of weak monarchs and can't spare the points. It should tie in to Rebel risks and such.

2) I think rebellions should start weak but spread and become stronger if you don't handle them quickly. This makes them more likely to succeed in a large far flung empire.


3) There should be ways to influence which cultures are accepted in your empire.

As a general note: I think it should be very hard to make cores disappear. Even after 500 or 1000+ years. There are still peoples that haven't been an independent nation for centuries that would like to be or could be encouraged into it. And I'm not just thinking the Scots and the Catalunians. There are peoples like the Kurds who've never been independent, but have persisted since biblical times. Closer to (my) home there are the Frisians. Friesland hasn't been independent for over 500 years, but still has it's own language and culture. Right now there is no big independence movement as it's an "accepted culture" within the Netherlands, but that could easily change under a different regime, like what happened in Spain under Franco with the Basques and Catalunians.

[video=youtube;Ozb6kZePIfE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozb6kZePIfE[/video]
 

unmerged(804580)

Lt. General
3 Badges
Sep 10, 2013
1.309
3
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
@Karavinka
Mmm something would have to be done about rebel spawning in hard to reach places I suppose. Since they're supposed to endanger the capital, it would make sense if they only spawn in a province that has a land connection to the capital. Would big rebellions (as in, a few 20k rebel stacks spawning in provinces near one another) be like goombas? Well, maybe if the goombas started breating fire... Sure, the country AI is smarter than the rebel AI but it still isn't very hard to outsmart it. Giving rebels large stacks would imo go some way to briding the difference between said rebels and national armies. As the OP mentioned, large-scale rebellions would probably be exploited the enemy AI declaring war on the empire.

As I have written in a previous post, I'd like the game to simulate the insurrections and the infighting that have almost always accompanied large multicultural empires historically. One more ambitious way of accomplishing it would be to add the rebel states from CK2 and Rome. I know from your previous posts that you(Karavinka) aren't overly interested in historical plausability. Therefore I understand if you feel that an added rebel mechanism is not the best way of increasing difficulty. I personally would on the other hand like any events/modifiers that increase late-game difficulty to feel historically correct.

I'm actually OK if the problems inherent in a pre-modern multicultural empire get represented in the late game. But to me, simply adding more rebel events sounds like adding 20 goombas per stage instead of making the level design and boss fight more interesting.

What I don't like about most arguments from history on the forum is that they often tend to be one-sided. You know one fact, and you want the game to represent that one fact, while ignoring often contradictory facts around. Like how some people claim "oh Russia is supposed to be overstronk don't whine it's historical"... yeah, I can totally buy that argument if Taungu also builds itself up to its historical extent in any 1444 scenario started game. "Oh Novgorod is meant to fail" yeah... why doesn't Vijayanagar not only collapse but also thrive in most games? What about Majapahit, should we have a trigger event to collapse it around 1500? Why isn't there a historical rivalry modifier between Ming and Manchu? They end up marrying each other and never fight since they don't really have anyone else (well, Korea) to marry. Does that make any sense? Of course it makes sense if people have their primary areas of interest, but to me, it just sounds fake. Well, I digress.

Sure, multicultural empires had a lot of problems, but before adding rebels, I think it's fair to add some measure that the players can act on. What I think is needed is a more elaborate culture mechanics itself: why can't we designate one or more cultures as privileged over others, for example, like Persian in many Indian Sultanates? (In my 1.1 Gujarat game, I had a Sultanate idea "Persian language at the court" even though Persian wasn't an accepted culture. And I had all existing Persian-cultured provinces. Hell?) Why can't we set one ethnic group against another, to keep their hatred toward each other instead of all revolting against the central government? Isn't it also realistic that, say, if Hessians and Rheinlaender provinces get conquered by France and they're engineered against each other in a rivalry, they both may want to prove themselves loyal to Paris to get a better treatment over their rival? Or, do we have immigrations and population movements of any sort in the game? The wave of nationalism started in Europe and did not really spread into the rest of the world in the EU4 time frame either, and a lot of people based their identity on the clan lineage or region rather than a "nationality." How do we account for these sorts of things? I'm not saying the revolts are ahistorical, there were revolts and resilient culture groups (look at the Aramaeans in the Middle East, for example) but that's just one side of the picture.

I'm completely OK if Ragusa conquers half of Europe in a chain of (apparently very lucky) events, as long as each step makes sense and is not likely to be repeated every game. But it's not that I think history or plausibility is not important - of course, I want the game to make sense, except that I acknowledge that the real world cannot be abstracted into a game "accurately" or even "reasonably well." Don't take it personally, and yes I think something needs to be done with the late game, but throwing more rebels sounds like a lazy solution to me that adds nothing but frustration.

EDIT: I guess I need to summarize that long rant to make myself clear. I want to propose a more elaborate mechanics with intuitive interface to deal with the cultures in your realm, like how one culture feels itself privileged over others while another feels itself oppressed, along with the measures that can be done to manage them: e.g. acknowledgement, subsidizing, patronizing, sowing distrust amongst minorities, repressing, exterminating, forcible migrations, etc. If the player screws up with the AE and gets into a large, historically impossible pan-world coalition, it's the player's fault. If the player screws up with the internal cultures and gets into a long dreadful rebel event chains, then it should also be the player's fault, but rebel events "just because" don't sound like an appealing design to me. Making culture management difficult is one thing, just throwing in rebels without giving you real options is something entirely different.
 
Last edited:

zodium

Person
31 Badges
Sep 9, 2013
3.313
13
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
What I don't like about most arguments from history on the forum is that they often tend to be one-sided. You know one fact, and you want the game to represent that one fact, while ignoring often contradictory facts around.

I'm having a stupidly busy work day today and can't make a substantial contribution to the threaad, but I just want to emphasize that this is exactly why the scope of the thread calls for both a narrative and a mechanical dimension to "proper" suggestions. I'm not going to nitpick too much, but strictly speaking, I would consider an appeal to narrative plausibility alone to fall short of the scope, much like an appeal to mechanics alone would. A perfect balance of risk-reward wrapped in a historically implausible narrative is no more satisfying a proposal than perfect historical representation with terrible risk reward.

With respect to narrative arguments in particular, I think it's sufficient to base the argument for plausibility on a single or few strong historical examples even in the face of contradictory examples, but an argument for plausibility is never sufficient by itself (whereas a criterion of historical accuracy would indeed call for plausibility across all examples). It is necessary to have correctly balanced mechanics AND a historically plausible narrative.
 

mcmanusaur

Colonel
2 Badges
Sep 1, 2013
1.126
871
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris
I think the list of offending mechanics in the OP can be summarized to three things that require improvement in several aspects each:
Warscore
Coalitions
Core Decay
I agree that these constitute much of what causes the game's system to scale sub-optimally, but I think there's a couple more factors as well that are missed, perhaps because they are independent of scaling currently, but I still think they lead to late-game situations that are harder to balance:
Vassal feeding (beyond a certain point)
PUs too stable (especially distant ones)
The OP's proposed solutions are definitely good ideas (though given a choice I would opt for somewhat more extreme overhauls than he has suggested), but I think the last two aspects must be addressed as well. My main concrete suggestion is that these things shouldn't be tweaked/nerfed by introducing more random chance (that a given PU will spontaneously end for example), but rather by presenting more gradual and deterministic costs.
 

casssnider

Sergeant
9 Badges
Aug 29, 2010
55
73
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
So I hope that this is within the bounds the OP has set for the thread, if not I apologize.

I think the main issue with the late game is a limitation of how the AI works. The AI either reacts to events happening at the moment or it follows a proactive script. It does not plan for the future the way a human does. This works fine in the beginning of the game as recovering cores, events, etc essentially provide 20 and 50 year goals for each AI country. But after the opening the AI begins to suffer from its inability to plan. A human player will set 20 and 50 year goals and they will begin to specialize in order to meet those goals. A human will take an idea, hire an adviser, build buildings and perform diplomatic actions in order to achieve those goals. Furthermore a human will decide to go to war or not based on those goals. The AI doesn't work along these lines. It does not even take in to consideration what ideas it has when it chooses a building to build (I am getting this information from this thread http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...-Compromises-and-CPU-RAM-Resources&highlight= ). So by the late game this advantage the human player has over the AI really begins to be felt.
 
Last edited:

mkhuh

Captain
8 Badges
Sep 30, 2010
330
0
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
To my earlier point of raising stakes late game:
Waging war should cost a lot of $ and possibly tech points. So 100% maintenence close to force limits army should really not be very sustainable. Maybe at balanced budget you ought to be able to carry 30-50% maintenance (enough to fight rebels and lower tech countries but not enough to fight equals). That cost can scale with tech too to give non-Europeans a fighting chance. This will cause money to actually matter as you'll need a war chest to prepare for wars. It will make wars for money more important as you'll need to it to fight wars with the big guys. This will also cause quicker resolutions to war as dragging it on becomes prohibitive and drives you into debt. Losing wars will also matter as even the cost of that white peace is that war chest which will be gone along with all the foregone tech. Basically if you want to wage constant warfare with equal tech countries you better be taking lots of $ along the way. This will make end game more interesting because you can build that war chest over time and finally have the satisfaction of fighting those big wars against your arch-enemies toward the end of the game. This way each war is not some boring affair when you dow someone and drag it on until you win, rinse and repeat. It forces the player to make choices. Finally it will balance things a bit as Russia will have infinite manpower but really fielding a 500k+ army will be very expensive for them at full morale. So basially they can be bigger but weaker with infinite reinforcements or stronger and smaller, or big and strong but for a short war.

War exhaustion should also matter more than it does currently and should be a lot more costly to get rid of. Again this will make losing big wars more costly in terms of rebels, income, etc. Right now even you win in late game vs. a coalition everyone rebounds right away since they don't really suffer any income or rebels even afer a crushing loss. If the enemy gets crushed it would be good to see some rebellions etc to cause some havoc with the enemy. This can be particularly intersting as income would be that much more valuable. Of course a huge war chest is also a target on your back.
 

bleakie

Lt. General
46 Badges
Feb 13, 2013
1.239
204
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
I would like to respond to the OP suggestions here:

1. Large revolts. The last thing that EU4 needs is another mechanic that bogs down progress in the late game by pure chance. What we need is not an event that randomly punishes a player for holding a culturally diverse empire. I have another suggestion to the change of rebel mechanics here.
One of the things that make EU4 so much better than EU3 is to turn many originally random mechanics (such as religious conversion and diplo-annexation) into a streamlined process. (You cannot imagine how frustrating it is to try 20+ times to diplo-annex a vassal with an "Unlikely" chance, if you haven't tried it) I think rebels can change in a similar manner. Positive revolt risk leads to the accumulation of rebel strength, and negative revolt risk reduces it. When rebel strength accumulates to a certain extent, then a large scale rebellion breaks loose all at once. This will make rebellion actually challenging without resorting to events with 10-20 years of MTTH.

2. Targeted coalitions. Instead of making things too convoluted, I think the issue can be solved by not allowing countries to join a coalition war on the side of an unknown country. Once the native Americans make contact with Europeans, it is fair game to have them join forces against a common threat. (Sorry for listing a RL example, but I think Seven Years' War should be observed as an example of such kinds of co-operation. This example is to show that long-distance coalition is not completely unacceptable as a game mechanic)

3. No capital core decay. France is the perfect example to show that why this mechanic is potentially troublesome, as someone has already mentioned. I think a better solution is to make cores reappear or reset when a nationalist or patriot rebel uprising occurs in a province, instead of after a successful siege. This is to make cores re-emerge even the great powers can stomp the rebels before they can finish a siege. This will have the positive side effect of making espionage more useful, as the idea group makes creating new cores in foreign territory easier.

I did not think comprehensively enough to give a detailed argument on the whole issue, but I can say that I have some different views on what constitute the offending mechanics in EU4. I whole-heartedly agree with the warscore part, but I have reservations to the vision on coalitions, core decay and rebels. I will elaborate if I have time.
 
Last edited: