Totemist Mechanics

[Lord_Baltimore]

Totemism is one of the few religions in the game that has no mechanics. This puts Totemist countries at a disadvantage compared to other religions and contributes to the generally bad gameplay in North America. I would like to propose a solution to this problem. The general outline is as follows:

- Totemist countries will be able to recruit a Shaman/Medicine Man similar to the way that countries currently recruit advisors
- The Medicine Man can be used to conduct ceremonies to give some benefit to the country. Different Totemist countries will start out with access to different ceremonies and countries can gain access to more ceremonies as the game progresses.
- Totemist countries will have religion points that they gain over time. They spend these points to recruit Medicine Men and hold ceremonies
- If a totemist country does not have a medicine man of its own, they can choose to follow the medicine man of another country provided they an ally, confederate or overlord

Now to break this down further:

Spoiler: Religion Points

Still working on a proper name, but they would function just like other religion points in the game. You gain them slowly over time, or gain and lose them through events and you spend them on stuff related to your religion. I would set a base level of one religion point per month, subject to various modifiers. Recruiting a medicine man would cost 100, 200 or 300 points depending on his skill level. Following a foreign medicine man would be half price. Conducting ceremonies would cost between 10 and 50 points depending on how powerful they are.

Spoiler: The Medicine Man

As mentioned above, the medicine man will function similarly to an advisor. He (or occasionally she) will have an age, culture, religion (usually but not always totemism; more on this later), personality and level. Like an advisor, the medicine man will give certain benefits based on their personality and scaled based on their level. And like advisors, you select a medicine man from a list of available candidates when the position is open. Medicine men are recruited with religion points. The cost will be scaled based on the level of the candidate.

Now to be a medicine man in most North American tribes was a high risk occupation. People would often blame their misfortunes on witchcraft and take revenge by murdering the medicine man. So in the game there will be several events where people blame the medicine man for low stability, high unrest, loss in a war, &c. These would culminate in an event to kill the medicine man. This events are more likely if the medicine man comes from an unaccepted culture or has a low skill level. You can also kill the medicine man yourself if you want to look for a new candidate.

Spoiler: Ceremonies

Totemist countries who have a medicine man will have access to ceremonies; which are essentially a list of buttons you can click to spend religion points for some benefit. Some of these would be generic ceremonies all Totemists countries can use, while others would be unique to a certain culture, culture group or country.

Some Examples:
- Harvest Celebration(Generic): Gain modifier to lower stability cost
- War Dance (Generic): Add manpower
- Green Corn Busk (Muskogean Culture Group, replaces harvest ceremony): Gain 1 stability
- Calumet Ceremony (Central Algonquian): Lower war exhaustion
- Medicine Lodge (Plains Algonquian): Gain Army Tradition

In a finished system, every nation would start with access to three ceremonies, with at least one being a culture or culture group specific ceremony.
Having a medicine man of a different culture will give you access to any ceremonies unique to that culture/culture group. There will be an event (made more likely by the medicine man’s skill level) to give you permanent access to his ceremonies.

Spoiler: Foreign Medicine Men

You will have the option of following another country’s medicine man instead of recruiting your own. To be eligible, the other country must be in your federation (native councils only), your ally or your overlord. The cost of following a foreign medicine man will be cheaper than recruiting your own, but you have no control over whether or not he gets killed and you will lose him if you lose your relationship with his country. Following a foreign medicine man will greatly improve your opinion of his country. Having other countries follow your medicine man will improve your standing within a federation. Foreign candidates will show up in the same list as your other candidates, with a country crest indicating where they come from. This will also include a button to request a federation or alliance with a country so that you can follow them.

Spoiler: Non Totemist Medicine Men

If you own provinces or have an ally or overlord of a different religion, you will be able to recruit medicine men of that religion. If you do this, you will synchronize with the new religion, just like in the Tengri mechanics, but temporarily lose access to all of your Totemist ceremonies. I’m not sure if foreign religions should have their own ceremonies, or if the relations bonus is enough.

There are still a lot of details to work out. If @neondt, or any of the other devs are interested, please let me know and I will put some more work into fleshing out the system. I welcome any suggestions other people have on this subject.

 

[Ihadabadname4]

Totemism isn't the only one, Zoroastrianism is totally empty too, though admittedly it's a meme-pick for a religion by 1444.

It'd be interesting to see Shi'ism differentiated a bit more from Sunni as well, perhaps by giving it Catholic-like mechanics for the election of Ayatollahs.

 

[mechanical_Critter]

edit: I'm an idiot

 

[moscal]

Totemists have cults, added with RoM expansion I think. Imo this religion suffers from its region being abysmal in general in terms of design rather than the religion in itself.

Totemists hadn't any mechanism and de facto any own events. This is totally empty pagan denomination

RoM give mechanism for Fetishism and Coptism

 

[mechanical_Critter]

OOOOOH my bad I got confused with Fet. Sorry I'm an idiot!

 

[Ruian]

Totemism is one of the few religions in the game that has no mechanics. This puts Totemist countries at a disadvantage compared to other religions and contributes to the generally bad gameplay in North America. I would like to propose a solution to this problem. The general outline is as follows:

- Totemist countries will be able to recruit a Shaman/Medicine Man similar to the way that countries currently recruit advisors
- The Medicine Man can be used to conduct ceremonies to give some benefit to the country. Different Totemist countries will start out with access to different ceremonies and countries can gain access to more ceremonies as the game progresses.
- Totemist countries will have religion points that they gain over time. They spend these points to recruit Medicine Men and hold ceremonies
- If a totemist country does not have a medicine man of its own, they can choose to follow the medicine man of another country provided they an ally, confederate or overlord

Now to break this down further:

Spoiler: Religion Points

Still working on a proper name, but they would function just like other religion points in the game. You gain them slowly over time, or gain and lose them through events and you spend them on stuff related to your religion. I would set a base level of one religion point per month, subject to various modifiers. Recruiting a medicine man would cost 100, 200 or 300 points depending on his skill level. Following a foreign medicine man would be half price. Conducting ceremonies would cost between 10 and 50 points depending on how powerful they are.

Spoiler: The Medicine Man

As mentioned above, the medicine man will function similarly to an advisor. He (or occasionally she) will have an age, culture, religion (usually but not always totemism; more on this later), personality and level. Like an advisor, the medicine man will give certain benefits based on their personality and scaled based on their level. And like advisors, you select a medicine man from a list of available candidates when the position is open. Medicine men are recruited with religion points. The cost will be scaled based on the level of the candidate.

Now to be a medicine man in most North American tribes was a high risk occupation. People would often blame their misfortunes on witchcraft and take revenge by murdering the medicine man. So in the game there will be several events where people blame the medicine man for low stability, high unrest, loss in a war, &c. These would culminate in an event to kill the medicine man. This events are more likely if the medicine man comes from an unaccepted culture or has a low skill level. You can also kill the medicine man yourself if you want to look for a new candidate.

Spoiler: Ceremonies

Totemist countries who have a medicine man will have access to ceremonies; which are essentially a list of buttons you can click to spend religion points for some benefit. Some of these would be generic ceremonies all Totemists countries can use, while others would be unique to a certain culture, culture group or country.

Some Examples:
- Harvest Celebration(Generic): Gain modifier to lower stability cost
- War Dance (Generic): Add manpower
- Green Corn Busk (Muskogean Culture Group, replaces harvest ceremony): Gain 1 stability
- Calumet Ceremony (Central Algonquian): Lower war exhaustion
- Medicine Lodge (Plains Algonquian): Gain Army Tradition

In a finished system, every nation would start with access to three ceremonies, with at least one being a culture or culture group specific ceremony.
Having a medicine man of a different culture will give you access to any ceremonies unique to that culture/culture group. There will be an event (made more likely by the medicine man’s skill level) to give you permanent access to his ceremonies.

Spoiler: Foreign Medicine Men

You will have the option of following another country’s medicine man instead of recruiting your own. To be eligible, the other country must be in your federation (native councils only), your ally or your overlord. The cost of following a foreign medicine man will be cheaper than recruiting your own, but you have no control over whether or not he gets killed and you will lose him if you lose your relationship with his country. Following a foreign medicine man will greatly improve your opinion of his country. Having other countries follow your medicine man will improve your standing within a federation. Foreign candidates will show up in the same list as your other candidates, with a country crest indicating where they come from. This will also include a button to request a federation or alliance with a country so that you can follow them.

Spoiler: Non Totemist Medicine Men

If you own provinces or have an ally or overlord of a different religion, you will be able to recruit medicine men of that religion. If you do this, you will synchronize with the new religion, just like in the Tengri mechanics, but temporarily lose access to all of your Totemist ceremonies. I’m not sure if foreign religions should have their own ceremonies, or if the relations bonus is enough.

There are still a lot of details to work out. If @neondt, or any of the other devs are interested, please let me know and I will put some more work into fleshing out the system. I welcome any suggestions other people have on this subject.

Love it. At this point I would be happy if they just gave Totemist some meme modifiers, like +5 Tolerance of Heathens. That would instantly rocket it to one of the best religions in the game, effectively replacing Humanist/Religious idea group.

Totemism isn't the only one, Zoroastrianism is totally empty too, though admittedly it's a meme-pick for a religion by 1444.

It'd be interesting to see Shi'ism differentiated a bit more from Sunni as well, perhaps by giving it Catholic-like mechanics for the election of Ayatollahs.

Judaism as well

 

[McManama]

Well never ever have played Totemist so I don't know, but yeah good luck with the idea!

 

[Lord_Baltimore]

@mechanical_Critter no worries. Given how boring North American Indians are in the current game, can't blame you for not being familiar with them

Totemism isn't the only one, Zoroastrianism is totally empty too, though admittedly it's a meme-pick for a religion by 1444.

While I'm not against new mechanics for Zoroastianism (or Judaism for that matter) its a very minor part of the game. Right now the two major religions lacking mechanics are Animism and Totemism. I would prefer to see the devs focus on those.

 

[Herr B.]

Would the medicine man cost upkeep (money)?
Gives he(she) monarch points?
What is the advantage of a higher skill medicine man (exept lower kill chance)?
Are there any passive effects of a medicine man?

 

[Lord_Baltimore]

Would the medicine man cost upkeep (money)?
Gives he(she) monarch points?

No and no

What is the advantage of a higher skill medicine man (exept lower kill chance)?
Are there any passive effects of a medicine man?

Sorry for explaining this one better. With advisors, you have different advisor types (theologian, artist, treasurer, &c) who give a unique bonus in addition to monarch points. My idea was that you would also have different types of medicine men with a unique bonus that scales with their level. To make up an example, we'll say there is a "False Face" medicine man type that gives -1 unrest at level one, -2 unrest at level two and -3 unrest at level three.
In addition to the direct bonus, having a higher level medicine man will make other countries more likely to follow you because they can get a bigger bonus for a lower price. As I outlined above, having other countries follow you gives diplomatic bonuses.

 

[Herr B.]

Sorry for explaining this one better. With advisors, you have different advisor types (theologian, artist, treasurer, &c) who give a unique bonus in addition to monarch points. My idea was that you would also have different types of medicine men with a unique bonus that scales with their level. To make up an example, we'll say there is a "False Face" medicine man type that gives -1 unrest at level one, -2 unrest at level two and -3 unrest at level three.
In addition to the direct bonus, having a higher level medicine man will make other countries more likely to follow you because they can get a bigger bonus for a lower price. As I outlined above, having other countries follow you gives diplomatic bonuses.

Interesting. However, I have a bit different approach.

I would propose, that the medicine man acts like an advisor, but gives religious points rather than monarch points. He (she) would cost money to hire and maintain, just like normal advisors, and also has passive effects for different types. These effects are constant regardless of your medicine man level, just like advisors. The religious points are then invested only in the ceremonies.

Medicine man types:
- War hero: + 10 % inf com ability
- Healer: - 5 % prov dev cost, - 5 % attrition
- Astronomer: - 10 % idea cost
- Prophet: + 2 % missionary strength
- Loyalist: - 2 unrest

A ceremony would cost 200 rel points, so you can activate one every 16,6 years with a level 1 med man , 8,3 years with a level 2 med man and every 5,5 years with a level 3 med man. Every ceremony gives effects for 10 years.

The money cost of a med man would correspont to the advisor cost.

 

[Herr B.]

Some addition: I support that it should be possible to get certain foreign religion med mans, just as the OP described. However, I would add, that employing such an advisor would enable a decision to convert to his (her) religion. The passive effect of the foreign religion med mans would be the religious syncrenism, as described by the OP.

 

[Lord_Baltimore]

Interesting. However, I have a bit different approach.

I would propose, that the medicine man acts like an advisor, but gives religious points rather than monarch points. He (she) would cost money to hire and maintain, just like normal advisors, and also has passive effects for different types. These effects are constant regardless of your medicine man level, just like advisors. The religious points are then invested only in the ceremonies.

Medicine man types:
- War hero: + 10 % inf com ability
- Healer: - 5 % prov dev cost, - 5 % attrition
- Astronomer: - 10 % idea cost
- Prophet: + 2 % missionary strength
- Loyalist: - 2 unrest

A ceremony would cost 200 rel points, so you can activate one every 16,6 years with a level 1 med man , 8,3 years with a level 2 med man and every 5,5 years with a level 3 med man. Every ceremony gives effects for 10 years.

The money cost of a med man would correspond to the advisor cost.

Thanks for the detailed response.
The issue I have with your suggestion is that all of the Totemist countries start out small (most with one province) in a low dev part of the world. They haven't got the money for one advisor, let alone a fourth. So you'd have a mechanic that no one can use in the early game

Some addition: I support that it should be possible to get certain foreign religion med mans, just as the OP described. However, I would add, that employing such an advisor would enable a decision to convert to his (her) religion. The passive effect of the foreign religion med mans would be the religious syncrenism, as described by the OP.

This could work. I suggest the decision should be something you don't get immediately but rather the decision would be activated through an event that may fire while you are following a foreign religion.

 

[Herr B.]

Thanks for the detailed response.
The issue I have with your suggestion is that all of the Totemist countries start out small (most with one province) in a low dev part of the world. They haven't got the money for one advisor, let alone a fourth. So you'd have a mechanic that no one can use in the early game

We could make the medicine man cheaper by cutting the cost by four. Then a nation could supply a medicine man just by the base income (the income for being indepedent).

 

[Lord_Baltimore]

We could make the medicine man cheaper by cutting the cost by four. Then a nation could supply a medicine man just by the base income (the income for being indepedent).

You could, but then you'd have the opposite problem that later in the game the cost would be meaningless. And you still have the problem in the early game that nations with a better start position can be holier than everyone else.

I suppose you could have some kind of scaled cost, but it would be complicated and likely introduce new problems.

I don't see what benefit a cash upkeep gives that's worth the trouble.

 

[Herr B.]

You could, but then you'd have the opposite problem that later in the game the cost would be meaningless. And you still have the problem in the early game that nations with a better start position can be holier than everyone else.

I suppose you could have some kind of scaled cost, but it would be complicated and likely introduce new problems.

I don't see what benefit a cash upkeep gives that's worth the trouble.

That's right, but my point was to tie the gain of religious points to some sort of investment. Maybe the cost of ceremonies could scale with development. On the other hand, it's quite normal for me, that larger countries get more benefits, see catholicism (more dev = more cardinals = more papal influence)

 

[Lord_Baltimore]

That's right, but my point was to tie the gain of religious points to some sort of investment. Maybe the cost of ceremonies could scale with development. On the other hand, it's quite normal for me, that larger countries get more benefits, see catholicism (more dev = more cardinals = more papal influence)

I don't believe you're really thinking this through. Why is it that higher development gives Catholic states more papal influence? Why does Catholicism even have a papal influence mechanic?

After you've thought about that a minute, why should greater income mean a stronger religion for North American natives? I don't mean hypothetically. What examples can you give me to show that richer tribes had a more effective religious establishment than poorer ones.