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Alex_brunius

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I did try TRP twice, both times I have been playing as Japan and both times It contributed to my gameplay feeling alot less "realistic" then the vanilla doomsday or HoI2 did.

The number one issue:
Names of shipclasses are way way off. Take the Mogami class for example, If I remember correctly this is a 1941 tech in the game. The longer buildrun for this cruiser then further changes the date for them to be introduced to your fleet to mid 1942 or mid 43, 44 If you don't want to rush the techs anything.

Now was the Mogami class a latewar developed cruiser in the real IJN? Lets quote wikipeda...

IJN Mogami:
Laid down: 27 October 1931
Launched: 14 March 1934
Commissioned: 28 July 1935

So the tech should be well... uhm... flagged year 1931 to enable you to start production later that year. Thats damned well 10years wrong! In a game where a full game usually not even last that long -_-

In vanilla HoI2 the tech for their production and some ships of this class was (realistically) available at the start of the 1936 scenario.

This list can be extended to include basically all japanese ship classes in the techtree and they are all between 2-10years late. The only exception beeing the Yamato class. I dont know about the other countrys but in this case the experience for me was gamebrakeing. I can only think of one thing to say: If it aint broke, don't fix it...

The reason techs appear 2-3 years before the class was built in vanilla is because some ships DO take 2-3years to build, and techs take time to research aswell. The research date is where you can start research without penalty and have to be assumed as the year the major participans in the war did start their research in that field.

The number two issue:
The division of Japan into two countrys and their manpower starting at basically zero. Division into two countrys is very bad, The reason japan could get asfar in china as they did was that their army based in manchucko and korea was more modern. In your mod it isnt, the kwatchung faction starts more or less without any techs and it contains your main front vs china unlike in vanilla.
On the manpower issue, in 1935 the japanese population on the home islands were around 70millions, thats exactlly the same as germany. Besides this population they had several soldiers from occupied korea in their army. All the events that I vaguelly remembered giving japan more manpower also seems to have vanished in the last build (but don't quote me on that, I might be confusing it with some other mod).

Basically, I enjoyed playing Japan in vanilla and I didn't in TRP, mainly due too those two issues, but also due to tech images displaying the wrong things, images in general being a happy mix of color, black&white and non-existent And the general impression of the UI and the map being pretty poorly designed.

I don't mean to bash you or your project, I really admire that your trying to improve the realism aspect of the game, but you should first sit down and discuss the many things that are already working realistically to make sure you don't ruin them (Such as sea units becomming available at historically correct dates).
 

Lothos

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THe entire top half of your comments need to be addressed to Kane on the TRP website.

Your comments about splitting Japan into two will not change. THis was done for AI reasons! If you (playing as Japan) want to take full control of Kwantung you can always take Military control of them.


We have been developing this mod for almost 5 years now so sorry if I don't take your comments at face value. You need to be more diplomatic on your comments and not make titles "Total Unrealistic Project" that immediately tells me to ignore you cause the title sums up exactly the level of mentality you possessed. Now you have a battle to climb up hill to prove to everyone who reads this forum that you are actual a mature person who wishes to participate and make the mod better.

Good luck and feel free to post on the TRP forum your comments as that is really where most of the people read and post about TRP
 

Alex_brunius

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Lothos said:
Your comments about splitting Japan into two will not change. THis was done for AI reasons! If you (playing as Japan) want to take full control of Kwantung you can always take Military control of them.

Is it that hard to make an event allowing you to fully annex/take controll of them if you wish at jan 1 1936? In other mods players generally don't suffer for changes made "for AI reasons" since its done this or other more intelligent ways.

Lothos said:
We have been developing this mod for almost 5 years now so sorry if I don't take your comments at face value. You need to be more diplomatic on your comments and not make titles "Total Unrealistic Project" that immediately tells me to ignore you cause the title sums up exactly the level of mentality you possessed.

Oh but it didnt cause you to ignore me at all, However it did cause you guys to reply quickly and that is just what I wanted and thats also the point of the provocative title of the thread :rolleyes:
The extra attention is also another +, mentality got nothing to do with it.

Now you have a battle to climb up hill to prove to everyone who reads this thread that you are trying to make the game more realistic, not less =P
Im asking you all as a team and if Kane don't wish to answer then its the rest of the teams job to know why hes done those changes in the way he have. Unless you just want to ignore why I (and most likely everyone else that play as japan) think you have made the game less realistic...

Im sure you have added and changed much to the mod during the 5years of development, But sadly that doenst change the fact that from my personal perspective it was a "realism" and immersion downgrade because of those changes.

Lothos said:
Good luck and feel free to post on the TRP forum your comments as that is really where most of the people read and post about TRP

Thanks, good luck with the mod in the future. The reason my post is here is that I really don't want to register a new profile, find your own forum and go through that hassle just to explain why I don't play it and give you guys a chanse to answer :)
 

swippy

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is it just me but i think lothos takes criticism very personally....

this guy was very friendly and didnt insult or anything, only the topic was slightly provocative

whileas lothos comes rudely and says "I ignore you, just dont play the mod"
 

Lothos

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Swippy its pretty clear to me, the guy did not take the time to research anything here and he makes comments withought even knowing the facts. Just read the portion on his dividing Japan in half. As I said in my reply the top part of it we can look into but his commetns about diving Japan in two and in short saying how stupid of an idea that was is what really sparked the entire issue.

People who have followed the mod for a long time know me very well. If you ask and do contructive critism I bend over backwards trying to get change sin but if you come out and say this is stupid withought even looking into why it was done and then YOUR REPLY is that I AM TO LAZY (in short) to go search the main TRP website well then HE DOES NOT deserver any attention.
 

unmerged(81115)

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i have just looked into this for lothos and yes the mogami class cruisers should be cl 36 and the katori class cruisers should be cl 40. ive corrected this but alex, just because the model names were wrong doesnt mean you couldnt get those ships until 41-42. four ships made up the mogami class. two are in the starting oob and the other two are in the build queue set to finish at their historic dates. so u would still get a fully totally realistic number of ships on time. also, that one example u gave seems to conveniently be the ONLY thing wrong as far as i can see in terms of the model names for japan. so please elaborate how they are "way off." i would like to know if there are any other ones u think are wrong because id like to fix them all but as i see it all the rest for japan are dead on :).
 

Alex_brunius

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Sykotic said:
That one example u gave seems to conveniently be the ONLY thing wrong as far as i can see in terms of the model names for japan. so please elaborate how they are "way off." i would like to know if there are any other ones u think are wrong because id like to fix them all but as i see it all the rest for japan are dead on :).

Thanks for looking into it. Could you take a look at the Carriers aswell? I recall having major troubles finishing any of them at historical dates.

Yet again from wikipedia:

Shokaku Carrier:
Laid down: December 12, 1937
Launched: June 1, 1939
Commissioned: August 8, 1941

So the Shokaku class should be around year 36-38 tech Carrier to match it (Remember it takes some time to research it aswell before you start the 3year long construction :p ). I think It was a 40 or 41 tech in your mod. Not 100% sure on it tho but even if it was 38/39 you would still have to research ahead alot to be able to finish construction on time. To further prove the point this was a peacetime construction too so they weren't really even in a hurry, In an emergency I think they could have cut down the commission time by at least a year. Check the Amagi carrier of similar size, built in 1year and 10months and laid down after the war broke out. If they really wanted the Japanese could easilly have had a battleready Shokaku carrier finished by early 1940.

Btw. When you decide what "year" a tech is, do you look at the commissioned time, launched time or when the ship was laid down? Because I think Paradox did look at the laid down time, and the ones that wrote the japanese names in the mod looked at the commissioned dates. And thats where the 3years off comes from (yes 3years is WAY off in a game where most campains and invasions are decided in a matter of months)
 
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Lord of Pain

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Didn't the mods lock a thread with the exact same name a couple of months ago? Something about a Romanian trying to convince people that Romania was a superpower that beat the Germans in epic battles with it's enormous modern army?
 

unmerged(81115)

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Thanks for looking into it. Could you take a look at the Carriers aswell? I recall having major troubles finishing any of them at historical dates.

Yet again from wikipedia:

Shokaku Carrier:
Laid down: December 12, 1937
Launched: June 1, 1939
Commissioned: August 8, 1941

So the Shokaku class should be around year 36-38 tech Carrier to match it (Remember it takes some time to research it aswell before you start the 3year long construction :p ). I think It was a 40 or 41 tech in your mod. Not 100% sure on it tho but even if it was 38/39 you would still have to research ahead alot to be able to finish construction on time. To further prove the point this was a peacetime construction too so they weren't really even in a hurry, In an emergency I think they could have cut down the commission time by at least a year. Check the Amagi carrier of similar size, built in 1year and 10months and laid down after the war broke out. If they really wanted the Japanese could easilly have had a battleready Shokaku carrier finished by early 1940.

Btw. When you decide what "year" a tech is, do you look at the commissioned time, launched time or when the ship was laid down? Because I think Paradox did look at the laid down time, and the ones that wrote the japanese names in the mod looked at the commissioned dates. And thats where the 3years off comes from (yes 3years is WAY off in a game where most campains and invasions are decided in a matter of months)

i actually do very much agree with u on the shokaku class. it is a 40 tech btw not a 41 tech but these two carriers are definately difficult to build on time even with the blueprint for carrierdesign that trp gives. they shouldnt however be the same model number as the soryu class so just changing the name i dont think is the answer, they should be a third generation carrier. the real problem is that for a mod like this u have to apply one tech tree to the ships of all major nations. and its tough because the ships of all major nations were all different in so many ways. in japan's case third generation carriers were ahead of their time built before other nations built their own equivalents. so its hard to represent in game... the solution i think is that carrierdesign 39 be knocked down to 38 and the fleetcarrier 40 tech be knocked down to 39. also i think japan should get a blueprint for that fleetcarrier tech in addition to the one they already have for the carrierdesign tech. that way japan could reasonably have the tech to start building the shokaku's by mid-late 38 which have them done on time. but this is not up to me. lothos has to okay it. it would be more historically accurate though, i agree with u. lothos?
 

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Not going to change the tech tree to accomodate model names sorry. The design works well as it is. I would suggest moving Soryo to the Escort Carrier line and moving SHokaku down but the tech tree wont change.

This is one of the major problems many mods run into. THey get so wound up fixing the tech tree over and over and over again they neglect the rest of the game. At some point you have to lock the tech tree in place and stop making changes so you can improve the rest of the game. Everytime you update the tech tree you have about 50 other files to update (AI files), then you have to do global searches on all events for the tech ID to make sure nothing is getting broken.

TRP tech tree has been turned enough already and just to accomodate a model name for Japan is not a good enough reason to redo the tech tree again.
 

unmerged(81115)

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yes its tough, like i said before, to satisify the needs of every country with one tech tree because every country was so different. i knew u probably wouldnt be keen on the idea, lothos, and i agree with u too, i like the current tech tree and i dont really want it changed i was just throwing around ideas. soryus definately shouldnt be escort carriers, though.

also, alex, as a player if u want two more CV's for the war and cant build shokaku class in time than u can just build two more soryu class and that way u can get the historical 6 big CV's. in fact i think that i will just change the name from shokaku class to the next generation carrier after the shokakus, that way it will be implied that the soryus and the skokakus are meant to be built as the same model. i think i will actually do that and change 1940 fleetcarrier to the "Hiyo class," which came after the shokakus. its easy and doesnt mess anything else up with the mod. also these ships were only built like 4 years apart. theres a bit of a difference in displacement but both classes actually carried about the same number of planes. so it wouldnt be terribly inaccurate to have them the same model. does that sound like a suitable solution, Lothos?
 

Aristotelis

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Alex_brunius said:
I did try TRP twice, both times I have been playing as Japan and both times It contributed to my gameplay feeling alot less "realistic" then the vanilla doomsday or HoI2 did.

The number one issue:
Names of shipclasses are way way off. Take the Mogami class for example, If I remember correctly this is a 1941 tech in the game. The longer buildrun for this cruiser then further changes the date for them to be introduced to your fleet to mid 1942 or mid 43, 44 If you don't want to rush the techs anything.

Now was the Mogami class a latewar developed cruiser in the real IJN? Lets quote wikipeda...

IJN Mogami:
Laid down: 27 October 1931
Launched: 14 March 1934
Commissioned: 28 July 1935

So the tech should be well... uhm... flagged year 1931 to enable you to start production later that year. Thats damned well 10years wrong! In a game where a full game usually not even last that long -_-

In vanilla HoI2 the tech for their production and some ships of this class was (realistically) available at the start of the 1936 scenario.

This list can be extended to include basically all japanese ship classes in the techtree and they are all between 2-10years late. The only exception beeing the Yamato class. I dont know about the other countrys but in this case the experience for me was gamebrakeing. I can only think of one thing to say: If it aint broke, don't fix it...

The reason techs appear 2-3 years before the class was built in vanilla is because some ships DO take 2-3years to build, and techs take time to research aswell. The research date is where you can start research without penalty and have to be assumed as the year the major participans in the war did start their research in that field.

The number two issue:
The division of Japan into two countrys and their manpower starting at basically zero. Division into two countrys is very bad, The reason japan could get asfar in china as they did was that their army based in manchucko and korea was more modern. In your mod it isnt, the kwatchung faction starts more or less without any techs and it contains your main front vs china unlike in vanilla.
On the manpower issue, in 1935 the japanese population on the home islands were around 70millions, thats exactlly the same as germany. Besides this population they had several soldiers from occupied korea in their army. All the events that I vaguelly remembered giving japan more manpower also seems to have vanished in the last build (but don't quote me on that, I might be confusing it with some other mod).

Basically, I enjoyed playing Japan in vanilla and I didn't in TRP, mainly due too those two issues, but also due to tech images displaying the wrong things, images in general being a happy mix of color, black&white and non-existent And the general impression of the UI and the map being pretty poorly designed.

I don't mean to bash you or your project, I really admire that your trying to improve the realism aspect of the game, but you should first sit down and discuss the many things that are already working realistically to make sure you don't ruin them (Such as sea units becomming available at historically correct dates).


Just a bunch of bullshit, not worth being answered in my opinon. TRP is great for its combat system, who cares if same name is wrong? Change it! It's so easy!
Should you compare it with other products in the markets, it is by far, the best mod in its field!
 

Alex_brunius

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Aristotelis said:
Just a bunch of bullshit, not worth being answered in my opinon. TRP is great for its combat system, who cares if same name is wrong? Change it! It's so easy!
Should you compare it with other products in the markets, it is by far, the best mod in its field!

Since you don't think the names matter why not just remove them all and name it Advanced fleet carrier class, and have the ship Shokaku be named Carrier 6?

Oh wait... that would be about as fun as playing the armageddon scenario that nobody plays ever.

Alot of people play this game because they want to "remake history" or play various "what if" scenarios, If you take away the things that make that history feel real and immersive you remove a large part of the fun for us.

The name Total realism project implies that they are trying to make everything (includeing names) More realistic than vanilla, If I want something with a "great combat system" I will go play a real RTS, not grand strategy. But would it be impossible to make a mod that got both?

Finally this mod is many things but is NOT a product on the market -_- And If I compare it with other mods I find c.o.r.e. alot more realistic (and thus by my standards the best), but that got nothing to do with this discussion.

Sykotic said:
in fact i think that i will just change the name from shokaku class to the next generation carrier after the shokakus, that way it will be implied that the soryus and the skokakus are meant to be built as the same model. i think i will actually do that and change 1940 fleetcarrier to the "Hiyo class"

That will make me happy. Seems this is the only way too since you cut the number of shipclasses available at the early years. As long as you can get all ships out by their historical dates without researching ahead of time everything is fine. And that should go for all countries, Just comparing the laid down dates with the tech years of most ships and make sure they match up decently shouldnt be that hard? I only needed 10min playing as Japan to find these problems.

Still doens't change the fact that dividing Japan makes it pretty dull playing them, how fun would playing UK be if all you colonies were a separate nation with zero techs?

Well good luck on your road to making the TRP the most enjoyable and realistic mod out there!
 
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