Total mobilization as Germany.

[frolix42]

Wow, and based upon what you were presenting you were doing well before these two statements. Seems to me that you've lost the battle when you start name calling, and yes saying "This Neo-Nazi nonsense you're trying to push does nothing except reveal your mentality." - just because he corrected you on a small technicality, is pretty demeaning.

I think it's pretty fair. This semi-related side-bar, this who was "responsible" for WW2, is Sauer's fixation that he keeps trying to sidetrack the mobilization debate into.

The links were supposed to be introduction into the subject. Particularly, I guess, for Americans, who have grown up with the Hollywood image of Nazi Germany - a the synagogue of Satan building up to invade and occupy the whole world in one sweep.

It seems the fact that Germany was more mobilized than the Allies pre-War apparently conflicts with his opinion that Nazi Germany was a victim of British and French aggression. And normal people don't associate Satan with Synagogues

I am interested in learning more about the economy and mobilization, but when you refuse to even look at what he is trying to present to you then you really aren't taking this debate seriously enough. Look through it first at least!

In fact I have engaged with his sources in the past, some of them are discredited, some of them are useless. Some of them are good but only because they show he's wrong. I've detailed how here

I have no problem reading information he presents, but unfortunately his typical practice is to make a wild and opinionated assertion:

Claiming that it proved almost impossible to create a modern efficient automotive industry for the country with the second largest automobile industry in the world at the time

And counterpoint:

There was some impressive growth in the 1930s for the German auto industry, but it was not a country motorized to anywhere near the same degree as the USA or Britain by the end of the decade.

Then simply dismissing it for arbitrary reasons:

No comparison of the UK and German automobile industry in that picture. Not that it really matters which country produced the most cars at the time, as contrary to what you claim, Germany had a highly advanced industrial base, especially with automobiles.

Unthinkable would be that he should provide a source of his own to support this.

And no, I'm not going to download a file from an obvious nutcase and open it. I find it very easy to post sources, excerpted and explained, without asking anyone to download files. It's demonstrably easy to present information without doing this. I'm sorry if you can't see why Sauer is running a severe credibility deficit.

 

[DDA87]

Wow this is heating up quickly, try to keep it civil guys :blush: Interesting read none the less, replying to the OP I'm curious will consumer goods still be there in HOI4? I always liked this system in hoi3, eventhough microing the sliders can get a little tedious sometimes.

 

[Daelyn75]

I think it's pretty fair. This semi-related side-bar, this who was "responsible" for WW2, is Sauer's fixation that he keeps trying to sidetrack the mobilization debate into.

It seems the fact that Germany was more mobilized than the Allies pre-War apparently conflicts with his factually incorrect cannon that Nazi Germany was a victim of British and French aggression. And normal people don't associate Satan with Synagogues

No, I actually don't think it's pretty fair. I can only go on this thread so far, and though I did check out the link to the other thread and your reply. Hey that's fine if you are debating him up and down all over the place, but to call someone a neo nazi over those two lines. . . . I think you are reading more than you should be from it. I gathered that he brought out the "no they didn't start the war with the Allies", was because of a childish backlash at you and had in no way revealed his secret neo-nazi tendencies that you believe he has.

"The links were supposed to be introduction into the subject. Particularly, I guess, for Americans, who have grown up with the Hollywood image of Nazi Germany - a the synagogue of Satan building up to invade and occupy the whole world in one sweep."

This doesn't say anything about literally associating Satan with Synagogues. He was being wordy and attempting to be eloquent about Americans believing Nazi Germany being so vastly evil and prepared to take over the world from the get go. He could have said Churches, Mosques, it doesn't have anything to do with hating Jews.

In fact I have engaged with his sources in the past, some of them are garbage. Some of them are good but only because they show he's wrong. I've detailed how here

I have no problem reading information he presents, in fact his typical practice is to make a wild and opinionated assertion:

I have no real issues with this, my reply to your debate was to interject that you also need to take a look at what his sources have to say, and I also told him to post excerpts from his sources on the forum. Also, I don't read every thread and every post, so I am unaware like I have stated, and can only go on what I have read in this thread. I see him posting one source, and you dismissed it instantly. How else is one supposed to judge that?

And no, I'm not going to download a file from an obvious nutcase and open it. I find it very easy to post sources, excerpted and explained, without asking anyone to download files. It's demonstrably easy to present information without doing this. I'm sorry if you can't see why Sauer is running a severe credibility deficit.

Who said I cannot see he is losing the debate? The issue is that again like above he posted one link, you refused to look at it, and then you are basing your refusal upon the fact that he is a nutcase, to which I can only assume you got that because you believe he is a neo-nazi - to which based upon your two points, that he is in fact a neo-nazi are pretty weak in of themselves.

 

[frolix42]

He didn't say that, he corrected Frolix42 on a small technicality that Germany started the war with Poland, and England and France then declared war on Germany, and that means he's a neo-nazi? Does that mean in your mind that I'm a neo-nazi for saying the man isn't one, and the fact that you have little basis to judge him on the issue? Unless he's been ranting neo-nazi like arguments in other threads than this, then you don't have much to stand on with your assertion. So where is the spade?

Technically I didn't call Sauer a Neo-Nazi, and he didn't correct me. I was simply addressing the fact that he's obsessed the perception of Germany as an aggressor.

This Neo-Nazi nonsense you're trying to push does nothing except reveal your mentality.

I do hold the opinion that Germany's declaration of War on Poland was a de facto declaration of War on Britain and France. But of course this opinon is removed from a discussion about mobilization and so I didn't bring it up until now. Sauer, without provocation, is parroting his own special worldview.

Germany didn't start war with Britain and France. France and Britain started war with Germany because Germany started war with Poland. Get your historical facts straight. Hitler didn't plan on war with Britain, and most certainly not the US. As for the USSR, nothing need be said.

Nothing needs to be said...what? Where are the Russian forum members when they are needed? You guys were all over the Panther thread.

And in the past made some sketchy statements about how wonderful it was to live in Germany at that time.

I wouldn't know about labor laws specifically without looking it up. But I doubt Britain or America sent 1/2 of its population on holidays paid by the state prior to the outbreak of the war. Just as an example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_Through_Joy

And some patently false ones.

Germany was [...] one of the richest countries in the world measured in GDP per capita (higher than countries like France, Norway and Belgium). This is stuff you are making up.

I also still remember the now locked thread where he made the case for "ethnicity" to be added to the game and I still get a real kick out of his "Synagogue of Satan" outburst. Maybe you have the saying where you are from; "If it walks like a duck, and it talks like a duck, chances are it's a..." I would never call anyone a "duck", but I will point out when someone is quacking.

Perhaps you are correct, however I am getting quite used to doing a little digging in the face of the so called undisputed message that floats around in our everyday lives and more often than not I find out that the so called truth isn't exactly solid, or correct. And that is why I wanted a healthy debate on the subject. Sacer wasn't being very convincing, so that was why I wanted him to get sources for his argument. It doesn't mean I supported his side.

I totally respect your desire for a reasoned debate about the subject. Sadly you will not get it from Sauer who, for example, flatly refuses to see how it would be possible for Germany's many small peasant farms would be labor intensive and indicate a lack of industrialization. It's just not worth my time to engage with someone (not anyone in particular) who is willfully ignorant. Or maybe you just enjoy us flaming at each other, either way I grok. If he tries to present new information, I might shoot it down if I feel like it.

Sacer has in fact posted very little that isn't "Neo-Nazi nonsense" (which isn't even an insult, as Frolix is accurately describing the ridiculousness of Sacer's sourcing and blatant butchering of the facts; and Sacer's persistence in using such discreditable narratives like "Germany didn't start the war" is a good indicator of Sacer's blatant biases regarding the issue). And no amount of false offense at simply calling a spade a spade will change that.

Thanks.

 

[Daelyn75]

Technically I didn't call Sauer a Neo-Nazi,

"This Neo-Nazi nonsense you're trying to push does nothing except reveal your mentality."

Hard to get anything else out of that. Perhaps you didn't outright mean it, but it sure as heck looks like it.

I stand by my statement, he is parroting their own special worldview. Here is where Sauer, apparently successfully, sidetracked the thread with his own obsession.

And in the past made some sketchy statements about how wonderful it was to live in Germany at that time.

And some patently false ones.

I also still remember the now locked thread where he asked for "ethnicity" to be added to the game and I still get a real kick out of his "Synagogue of Satan" outburst. Maybe you have the saying where you are from; "If it walks like a duck, and it talks like a duck, chances are it's a..." I would never call anyone a "duck", but I will point out when someone is quacking.

Perhaps he secretly is a neo-nazi, however like I've said before I can only judge this upon those two lines in the thread that you called him a neo-nazi for. Regardless, mudslinging here isn't held very high. About ten years ago, I had one guy dog my point of view on a subject. I actually used quotes from a book, and despite the fact that he admitted that he wasn't overly knowledgeable on the subject he still persisted with being ignorant with his replies. This went on for several weeks and I eventually became tired of it. Months later, after he'd seen that I hadn't posted much lately he gloated over the fact that I don't come around anymore. I replied that I lurk more than post, removed - Had a dad

Think about that here, please.

I totally respect your desire for a reasoned debate about the subject. Sadly you will not get it from Sauer who, for example, flatly refuses to see how it would be possible for Germany's many small peasant farms would be labor intensive and indicate a lack of industrialization.

This was why I was trying to bolster Sacer's debating skills. If you don't back up what you are saying then there is little to go on.

 

[Meglok]

Sheesh guys, take it off-line. Your discussion appears to be devolving into he said, she said and about to get an off track meme.

 

[Secret Master]

Well, if we're arguing about neo-nazi anything, then the thread has outlasted its usefulness.

Personal attacks of any kind are not appropriate forum discourse.

Thread closed.