Topsy-turvy world of industrialization apparently more turvy than topsy

[unmerged(33144)]

So here's the deal:

I recently installed the 1.04 patch and have been merrily playing a couple of games now as Norway or Argentina (I prefer trying to make relatively small nations into much larger ones, though I usually fail.) However, I have discovered a somewhat dissapointing trend in my games with this patch that I didn't get into before:

1:
I start out with a grand old agricultural nation which fills my coffers at a very hope-inspiring rate.

2:
I decide to use all that wonderful cash to industrialize my nation way ahead of schedule, thinking that if I make this much money now, imagine what I will make when I get factories up and running.

3:
After squeezing and trimming my wallet considerably, I get a few factories started up, converting raw resources I produce in my own country into refined goods for the discerning customer. For Norway and Argentina, this pretty much means furniture.

4:
I sit back to watch the cash roll in. Only it doesn't. In fact, it seems I am now paying many times as much money as before to educate my underlings, so they can research new and wonderful things. And not only that, but the goods I produce from my factories now appear to earn me less in trade than the raw materials I had my people selling before I put them in factories! Apparently, even though they are considerably more expensive, I produce so much less of them that I still end up making less money.

What happened? Wasn't industrialization a means to drag my country up from the knee-deep mud that its farmers used to slouch around in? Instead, it seems the weight of the factories pulls me under, drowning me in mud.

The situation is doubly irritating, because it seems my underlings are lining their pockets with gold, even though I tax them horrifically. Happy, plump citizens who can read is all well and good, but I WANT MY MONEY!

So what is one to do in 1.04 to gain a decent income with a major minor nation? Give up on educating the masses and become a luddite? Forget this whole industrialization business and make due with farm money? Start exporting tons of technology to get enough cash to build new economy-strangling factories? Or am I simply doomed to failure unless I carve a healthy slice out of Africa?

How to stay afloat in this topsy-turvy world?

 

[Benz]

with your strange posting you make many good points, thank you

i would like to ask if RP gain has been capped at 1.00?

 

[oxmonsta]

i would like to ask if RP gain has been capped at 1.00?

No, it hasn't. However, the rate of literacy growth has been halved, and I think the contribution to RP gain from clerks has been lowered a bit - both of which mean that you don't quite get as much RP gain as with previous patches.

 

[Benz]

No, it hasn't. However, the rate of literacy growth has been halved, and I think the contribution to RP gain from clerks has been lowered a bit - both of which mean that you don't quite get as much RP gain as with previous patches.

yes, darwinism also now only decreases the RP gain modifier of clergy by 25% and increases it for clerks by 25% now

why i ask my previous question is because i am gaining 1.00 RP, then darwinism fires, still i gain 1.00 RP -- i have no clergy

seems weird

 

[NikkTheTrick]

As Russia, I am getting 2.03 RP/month at the moment
Massive industrialization is not as much of a no-brainer now. You have to chose between loss of cash due to using less profitable factories and a small RP gain due to lack of clerks...

 

[kingdom ursus]

As Russia, I am getting 2.03 RP/month at the moment
Massive industrialization is not as much of a no-brainer now. You have to chose between loss of cash due to using less profitable factories and a small RP gain due to lack of clerks...

I'm playing as Russia too, and making 1.66 RP/month without any effort (about 90% education spending).

I took OE to similar levels of industrialization and literacy previously (not with as many clerks of course) but have never seen these numbers. Could it be because of the event Tsar XXX (cant remember who he was) Reforms? As I remember the event increases education modifier (whatever it is called) by 10%.

 

[Kriegsspieler]

What you guys have posted here suggests that there is still more balancing to be done between the incomes generated from RGOs versus factories. Remember, though, that certain factories, such as furniture and clothing, are likely to become more profitable as the size of the middle class expands over the game.

 

[unmerged(49082)]

Industry vs farming is indeed imbalanced now in 1.04. My quick solution for the problem is to mod the game yourself. Just cut the efficiency of farming RGO's and pops demand for farming goods to half. That should reduce the scale with no/little other effects. If the result still doesn't satisfy you repeat it. Remember that for example cattle RGO has efficiency 16 times higher than before (was 1 now it's 16) while factories have been nerfed a little.

 

[OHgamer]

Industry vs farming is indeed imbalanced now in 1.04. My quick solution for the problem is to mod the game yourself. Just cut the efficiency of farming RGO's and pops demand for farming goods to half. That should reduce the scale with no/little other effects. If the result still doesn't satisfy you repeat it. Remember that for example cattle RGO has efficiency 16 times higher than before (was 1 now it's 16) while factories have been nerfed a little.

I will put a caveat on here - part of the reason for expanding the efficiencies for basic RGOs is to ensure that supplies on the WM are able to meet demand, both by nations and their POPs, which was not happening in 1.03C (everyone remember the desperate search for sulphur and coal, and the problem of one's POPs not being able to get life needs even if you did not tax them/tariff them at all). So keep in mind that by reducing the increased efficiencies you cut the supplies available to the WM, and potentially yourself, in these goods.

 

[JScott991]

Excellent points Walen.

This may answer some of my own questions about why I can't make money as France using my "older" industrialization strategy.

I think I'll mod the economic files back to their 1.03 levels and start over.

 

[unmerged(36774)]

Part of the game should be to plan your factories the way that you preferably produce needed resources yourself or are able to buy them from world market. It shouldn't be granted, that you can buy everything. And if you don't produce certain raw materials, you need to plan some conquests.

In 1.03c the amount of certain raw materials decreased, because industrialized countries converted all pops in important RGOs to craftsmen or clerks. I agree that this was of course big problem.

I know that I shouldn't think too historically now, but was it true in that time, that nobody was suffering malnutrition? Because I don't belive this, I don't think all pops even should be able to buy their needs. Of course balancing this is difficult, I can understand that.

 

[OHgamer]

Over the weekend I took time to look at some of these issues being raised here and I think I may have found the root of the problem, but will still need to do more testing to confirm.

The problem, I think, is that the base price of some industrial goods, when factored by demand/supply ratios for that good, may not result in a price high enough to cover the cost of the inputs, the price of which is also affected by their own demand/supply ratios. If the demand/supply price of the inputs raises input prices higher than the demand/supply ratios for the finished product, then the finished product will have a low profitability or, potentially, negative profit, until such time as the market cost of inputs declines or the market cost of the finished product rises from demand. Factor in efficiency of production in any given factory, and the result is you have all sorts of variables in effect determining which factories are more or less profitable than others, and these variables can change on a day to day basis.

 

[unmerged(14102)]

Excellent points Walen.

This may answer some of my own questions about why I can't make money as France using my "older" industrialization strategy.

I think I'll mod the economic files back to their 1.03 levels and start over.

Might you not wish to consider a new strategy for a new econ?

 

[JScott991]

OH,

Do you think, then, that people would be better off using the 1.03c settings for now, until these issues can be fixed?

Or do you have some suggestions where the numbers should be set?

Over the weekend I took time to look at some of these issues being raised here and I think I may have found the root of the problem, but will still need to do more testing to confirm.

The problem, I think, is that the base price of some industrial goods, when factored by demand/supply ratios for that good, may not result in a price high enough to cover the cost of the inputs, the price of which is also affected by their own demand/supply ratios. If the demand/supply price of the inputs raises input prices higher than the demand/supply ratios for the finished product, then the finished product will have a low profitability or, potentially, negative profit, until such time as the market cost of inputs declines or the market cost of the finished product rises from demand. Factor in efficiency of production in any given factory, and the result is you have all sorts of variables in effect determining which factories are more or less profitable than others, and these variables can change on a day to day basis.

 

[JScott991]

I don't think that a rural economy should be the pathway to victory. That's just me.

If I had to choose between two flawed systems, I prefer the flawed system that more resembles history.

Might you not wish to consider a new strategy for a new econ?

 

[unmerged(14102)]

Over the weekend I took time to look at some of these issues being raised here and I think I may have found the root of the problem, but will still need to do more testing to confirm.

The problem, I think, is that the base price of some industrial goods, when factored by demand/supply ratios for that good, may not result in a price high enough to cover the cost of the inputs, the price of which is also affected by their own demand/supply ratios. If the demand/supply price of the inputs raises input prices higher than the demand/supply ratios for the finished product, then the finished product will have a low profitability or, potentially, negative profit, until such time as the market cost of inputs declines or the market cost of the finished product rises from demand. Factor in efficiency of production in any given factory, and the result is you have all sorts of variables in effect determining which factories are more or less profitable than others, and these variables can change on a day to day basis.

OH;

True, but I would also reitereate what you said above earlier: as the middle class develops, many prices trend up. I just ran through a game as BRA through 1900. Early on fabric was a great factory and clothes was terrible. But by 1880's, clothes started to make money and by 1900 it was doing VERY WELL.

As you suggest: look carefully at the component costs and the resultant product price B4 you choose a factory.

I think the issue here in this thread is that some players got very spoiled in v1.03 [and earlier] industrialization strategies: build steel, steel, and steel. Now you have to actually look at the game. HORRORS!!! :rofl: Steel wasn't a bad factory for me in my game, but it was far from the best. Liquor and Wine were both much better for instance.

How could the Vicky team contemplate that thought!?! Actually look at the game before making a decision! You mean we now have to analyze the game situation itself and devise STRATEGIES BASED UPON THE SITUATION?!?

Great job Vicky Team! Great Game.

 

[unmerged(14102)]

I don't think that a rural economy should be the pathway to victory. That's just me.

???? It isn't, or at least I can't. It just allows many of hte minors and uncivs to have a chance to move forward in the 1st half of the game. But once you get factories, railroads, and techs in place your incomes soar. As Brasil in my last game I had numerous factories kicking out way over L20 per day. I didn't have any RGO's even getting to L10. Am I missing something?

 

[OHgamer]

OH,

Do you think, then, that people would be better off using the 1.03c settings for now, until these issues can be fixed?

Or do you have some suggestions where the numbers should be set?

I'm still testing the ideas so I'm a bit leary about suggesting any numerical changes at this point.

Going back to 1.03C settings, as I note above, has its own set of problems. I guess I'll leave it up to each player at this point which they think is the better system.

we all love Victoria for its complexity, but that complexity comes with a price in terms of finding balances in various areas that will work for players of a wide variety of nations in varying conditions. I'm sure that since I became a beta back last summer I've made a lot more hair go grey trying to figure out how all the interconnections work.

 

[Kriegsspieler]

Personally, I am not yet convinced there's anything very broken here. I find in the early game that first-level manufactured goods (glass, lumber, fabric, steel) are sufficiently profitable. By mid-century, second-level manufactured goods (clothing, furniture, wine) are also netting me a good profit, too, especially when connected with infrastructure improvements. Steel continues to be profitable throughout, just not at the insane levels of 1.03c.

Machine parts never make a profit, to be sure, but that was by design to keep machine parts from flooding too early onto the WM, allowing for overheated industrialization, total colonization of Africa by 1860, etc.

 

[JScott991]

Do you think though that in the real world, the pathway to profitability was producing liquor rather than steel?