• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Jul 18, 2001
1.108
0
Visit site
Edit: Tsushima! How could this naval be forgotten? Now there´s an decisive and surprising win, if there even was one.
How was it surprising ? An out dated fleet traveling all the way around the world to fight an enemy whose home base was an hour or so away from the battlefield.

Besides it wasnt TSushima what won the war, it was the fall of Port Arthur, for which the defending general should have been charged but instead was placed in command of an Army in WW1, and Mudken.

If the Russians had won either one the Japanese would have gone broke and called it a day.

Hell, if Nicholas had the balls to stay in the war for another year the japanese would have still gone broke and called it a day.
 

Ape

Norrlänning
69 Badges
Oct 16, 2000
892
202
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
Originally posted by Sire Enaique
and most importantly there were only 2 of them.
Well there were two more in the works, but they were never finished......

Originally posted by Neil


And how did Tsushima cause that? It was old news even in 1905.

And the creation of the US is of far more historical importance than a small war between Russia and Japan.
I didnt say it caused it, but the Brits might have cancelled their alliance if the Japanese navy had been destroyed, after all what is the need for an ally that are to protect your assets with their navy if they have no navy. Tsushima radically changed the power in Nothern China, and set Japan on their road towards two nuclear blasts.

Creation of USA would have happend even if GB had won the War of Rebellion..... I mean Canada and Australia turned out pretty good in the end ;)......


Originally posted by ZheShiWO

How was it surprising ? An out dated fleet traveling all the way around the world to fight an enemy whose home base was an hour or so away from the battlefield.

Besides it wasnt TSushima what won the war, it was the fall of Port Arthur, for which the defending general should have been charged but instead was placed in command of an Army in WW1, and Mudken.

If the Russians had won either one the Japanese would have gone broke and called it a day.

Hell, if Nicholas had the balls to stay in the war for another year the japanese would have still gone broke and called it a day.
Outdated? The Borodino class was state of the art at that time.
Surprising, yes it was surprising at that time. A European Major Power was defeated in a naval battle against an asian power. Had the Russians won, or at least not suffered such an devastating defeat it would not have been as surprising, but the Baltic Fleet was almost annihilated, wich was surprising.

No Tsushima didnt win the war, but you stated yourself the answer in your post. Had the Russians won either the siege of Port Arthur or the battle of Tsushima, there would have been no peace, and the Japanese would have gone broke. Port Arthur was the last nail in the coffin, but Tsushima broke the last chance the Russians had to win the war.
 

unmerged(5120)

Quartermaster General
Jul 30, 2001
1.218
0
Visit site
Originally posted by Ape
Well there were two more in the works, but they were never finished......

Sachsen and Württemberg were slightly larger than Baden, actually.

Still, compare the numbers:

capital ships (BB/BC/total)

laid down before and finished during the war:

Britain: 13/1/14
Germany: 6/3/9


laid down and completed during the war:

Britain: 0/5/5
Germany: 0/0/0

Conclusion: Germany had to win really big at Jutland to make a difference.

And the German plan wasn't to engage the Grand Fleet anyway, their objective was to trap Beatty's battlecruisers. As it was, it was Scheer who got caught twice by Jellicoe instead.
 
Jul 18, 2001
1.108
0
Visit site
Outdated? The Borodino class was state of the art at that time.
Was the Russian fleet made up of Borodino class warships ? No.
Over all the Japanese fleet was superior.
No Tsushima didnt win the war, but you stated yourself the answer in your post. Had the Russians won either the siege of Port Arthur or the battle of Tsushima, there would have been no peace, and the Japanese would have gone broke. Port Arthur was the last nail in the coffin, but Tsushima broke the last chance the Russians had to win the war.
Actualy if the Russians held their ground at Mudken the Japanese would have been bled white and called it quits. The war was lost in Manchuria.
 

Dinsdale

Field Marshal
18 Badges
Dec 10, 2002
2.661
0
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Pride of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2
  • Semper Fi
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
Originally posted by Sire Enaique
All Schwarzkopf showed in 1991 was that he wasn't stupid.

That desert was unmarked and roadless. Could not have been done without GPS technology, domination of the skies, and denial of recon to the enemy.

It's not the fact that he hit an open flank, the fact that flank was kept open through deception and disguise is an achievement in itself.

Norm's body of work is not complete enough to put him in with the greats though.


Now for a nomination:

O'Connor.

At last! I agree wholeheartedly with your choice. An amazing achievement which I do not believe was ever replicated.

A General who defends a fortified position with 1:7 odds would be considered great, this man attacks at 1:7 and could have finished up Africa if not for the ridiculous decision to halt his offensive.

I'd also like to nominate him for unluckiest General of all time. Showing a competence obviously frowned upon by more enlightened British General Staff whose policy of heroic sacrifice and defeat was rather rudely replaced by dashing success, he has his offensive shut down and is then captured by a German patrol. He spends 2 years as a POW reading about Wavell, Auchinlauch, Alexander and Monty struggling for 2 years to to what he did in months, then after the war, it's the Monty and Rommel show in the papers, films and books.

Had Churchill left him do his job we'd all be asking Erwin who?
 

unmerged(15263)

3 day suspension(UD)
Mar 3, 2003
69
0
Visit site
Originally posted by Imperialist
Again, why does a general's politics play a part in ranking his abilities as a leader of men? Manstein, Rommel, and Guderian were all fine leaders. What side they fought for shouldn't even come into consideration.

How much did any of them know about the Nazis before the war?

Wouldn't this also disqualify all Soviet generals? Stalin was every bit as bad as hitler, if not worse.

*argh*

Manstein, Rommel and Guderian showed that they 1) had no clue about poltics at all, b) that they were just someone hitler and the nazis USED.

Stalin managed in the end, to give his generals more freedom, and the posibility of making retreets. Hitler took more and more control, even down to battalion level, and never allowed retreat bascily.....
 

unmerged(15263)

3 day suspension(UD)
Mar 3, 2003
69
0
Visit site
Originally posted by seamusmoon
Here's a response for Zhukov...Marshal Zhukov seemed to believe that greatness was achieved by recklessly risking the lives of his men. Most of his decisions were not the result of any superior military knowledge, but rather were born of his ambition to curry political favor from Stalin. Ivan Konev was, by far, the most able military leader of all the Soviet Marshals. That being said, I still would not pick Marshal Konev as the greatest military mind of the Red Army or the twentieth century...that honor I would give to a man who achieved greatness by mastering a type of warfare that, even today, most generals will avoid like the plague. I am, of course, referring to urban warfare.

So, my nomination is for Colonel General Vasily Ivanovich Chuikov, commander of the 62nd Army at Stalingrad, and Headmaster of the "Stalingrad Academy of Street-Fighting".

Intersting. In his memoairs, Zhukov writes something along the lines of accusing Chuikov off lying about his role in the encirclemt of Paulus 6th Army inside Stalingrad. About Zhukov "curry political favour from Stalin", I think your ALOT wrong. Soon after the war, Zhukov got sent to remote Military Districts, first to Odessa, then to Siberia...
 

unmerged(9422)

General
May 22, 2002
1.811
0
Originally posted by draftwarmongers
I think I'd like to broaden it to include Admirals and air force leaders.
My reasoning being the UK certainly had a better carde of naval commanders than generals
say cunningham or sommerville.

Or indeed why not nominate one from your own country and a couple more from overseas.


Army general: For World War II, I will go with Yamashita Tomoyuki.. However, I have always been fond of Kuribayashi and Homma as well.. But, this is all of 20th century. I will definitely have to list some Russo-Japanese War heroes.. Oyama Iwao and Nogi Maresuke.

Navy Admiral: From Russo-Japanese War, definitely Tougou Heihachiro. And from World War II, Koga, Yamamoto, Toyoda, and Yamaguchi..

Air Leaders: Probably Genda.. A great strategist. :)
 

unmerged(14537)

Second Lieutenant
Feb 8, 2003
170
0
Visit site
Manstein, Balck, Bradley
 

Alwin von Arlt

Captain
86 Badges
Dec 12, 2001
411
10
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
"But his refusal to dabble with the Nazis does show that some old Prussian officers still had some backbone, and makes him IMHO a better man then say Manstein or Rommel, and thus should be valued higher then said Field marshalls."

Manstein didn't like the Nazis, he served for his homeland, heck he even got fired towards the end of the war.
 

Ape

Norrlänning
69 Badges
Oct 16, 2000
892
202
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
Originally posted by Alwin von Arlt

Manstein didn't like the Nazis,
Wich he said in his memoars after the war :rolleyes: , Manstein served the nazis faithfully and loyally even after he was fired.
 

w_mullender

Human Rights Advisor of Atilla
7 Badges
Apr 11, 2001
2.149
4
Visit site
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
Originally posted by Ape
Wich he said in his memoars after the war :rolleyes: , Manstein served the nazis faithfully and loyally even after he was fired.
You know the marine saying from that era?
"Right or wrong it is my country"
Still serving the nazis shouldnt get you in the list of most moral commanders.
But judging on "technical performance" some of them should be ranked really high.
Still my vote goes to the guy in charge of fighter command (I cant remember his name but he got kinda fired after that) during the battle of Britain
 

unmerged(11486)

The Ancient Mariner
Oct 31, 2002
2.689
0
Visit site
My input:

Generals
1. Heinz Guderian-German-WW2
2. George Patton-American-WW2
3. Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov-Russian-WW2
4. John Pershing-American-WW1
5. Gustaf Mannerheim-Finnish-WW2
6. Erwin Rommel-German-WW2
7. Horatio Kitchener-British-Boer War, WW1

Admirals
1. Chester Nimitz-American-WW2
2. William Halsey-American-WW2
3. John Jellicoe-British-WW1
4. David Beatty-British-WW1
5. Heihachiro Togo-Japanese-Russo-Japanese War, WW1
6. Isoroku Yamamoto-Japanese-WW2
7. Alfred von Tirpitz-German-WW1

This list is not all-inclusive, nor is it in any order.

Steele
 

unmerged(12895)

Captain
Dec 18, 2002
461
0
Visit site
Seconding Giap's nomination

I wish to second and support the initial nomination of Giap.

Giap was an excellent organiser of forces and supply in the face of political and military superiority. Giaps capacity to organise strategically significant forces, twice, during the French war , while keeping the French operationally engaged was masterful. Giaps involvement in the American war was less significant, although we may remember that before 1964 a strategically successful political and military outcome seemed to be within immediate reach. Additionally, Giap played a major role in rebuilding operational and strategic capacity after the Tet offensives.

On the other hand, the Red River offensive.

Yet he learnt from this, and applied his findings at Dien Binh Phu. Remember too that Giap opposed the Party's decision for the Tet offensive as pre-mature, as he not only viewed the military situation as unfavorable, but that he also expected "urban social revolution" the rest of the Party believed in would not occur.

Giap's brilliance needs to be set within the bounds of the political / social objectives of the Viet Minh / DRVN, actualised in the military domain, not within the bounds of operational warfare.
 

Vortigern

Sergeant
Feb 26, 2002
78
0
Visit site
Originally posted by w_mullender
Still my vote goes to the guy in charge of fighter command (I cant remember his name but he got kinda fired after that) during the battle of Britain

Air Marshall Sir Hugh Dowding.

He was replaced by Air Vice Marshall Sir Trafford Leigh-Mallory.
 
Jun 4, 2002
589
0
Visit site
Originally posted by steelehc
Admirals
1. Chester Nimitz-American-WW2
2. William Halsey-American-WW2
3. John Jellicoe-British-WW1
4. David Beatty-British-WW1
5. Heihachiro Togo-Japanese-Russo-Japanese War, WW1
6. Isoroku Yamamoto-Japanese-WW2
7. Alfred von Tirpitz-German-WW1
Well, naval warfare being my specialty, I just thought that I would say how difficult it is to rate these fellows. Really, what defines a great admiral? Is it a master administrator like Nimitz? Someone who always keeps his objectives in mind like Jellicoe? A planner like Yamamoto or Tirpitz? The number and scale of battles won, like Togo and Halsey? Or the ability to play to the public and behave like a jackass, while gaining a largely undeserved promotion, like Beatty? ;)

I would say that Nimitz would be the number one administrator, since he managed to manage the enormous logistics of the Pacific, with King and Leahy coming up right behind him. Not even the RN had to deal with such enormous supply lines. Of course, the fact that they were American helped greatly, but still their skill aided their success greatly. Honorable mention for Erich Raeder, who laid the groundwork for the navy that Doenitz would so badly misuse.

For battle admirals, I would go with Togo. Using a force which was on paper far inferior, he handed the entire Russian navy it's ass. Spruance and Halsey are right up there as well, for their hard-fighting techniques.

For the planners, I think that Jacky Fisher gets a spot, for his revolutionizing of naval warfare, as well as his virtual creation of the RN submarine arm. Tirpitz gets something as well for making something from nothing, and accomplishing a great deal with his limited resources compared to his rival. I think that Yamamoto earns points for audacity, but would have better served his country in the short term by not providing his guidance and genius. An IJN run by the old Battleship Admirals would have lost the Pacific war even sooner than they did in actuality.

As for Beatty, like Chuichi Nagumo, I have nothing nice to say about him at all. Nagumo was overly indecisive, and Yamamoto would have done well to bring back Jellicoe from the dead to run his carriers. Beatty, on the other hand, was too much of a loose cannon, and his hotdogging killed thousands of RN sailors in a morning at Jutland. The two men are opposites, but are both defective in their own ways.
 
Dec 23, 2001
683
1
Visit site
Originally posted by steelehc

Generals
1. Heinz Guderian-German-WW2
2. George Patton-American-WW2
3. Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov-Russian-WW2
4. John Pershing-American-WW1
5. Gustaf Mannerheim-Finnish-WW2
6. Erwin Rommel-German-WW2
7. Horatio Kitchener-British-Boer War, WW1



Interesting selection. Not sure I'd have included Hurrying Heniz. Or Kitchener (though his strategic vision for WW1 was pretty much bang on). Certainly wouldn't have included Pershing, straight off the top of my head I can think of a number of much better WW1 generals, fighting generals and organisers, on both sides.