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Reman

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Warmonger and Communion are great combination, but to be honest I think Theocratic is much better since you can have leased temple holdings giving you bonuses

Tyranny reduction from Pursuit of Power is also great, especially if you combine it with other source like Bidaic holy site or Aachen Palace special building, in that case you can pretty much imprison/revoke anyone at will.

Your way of dealing with heresy is interesting, but to be honest it's not worth it. Heresies are just annoying 'what-a-mole' things. When they happen I simply imprison/revoke heretic vassals and that's it.
The main reason I'd keep theocratic clergy is for theocracy vassals, which have much higher obligations than feudal/city vassals, and don't have an opinion penalty for being at said high obligations. Do leased temple holdings give you bonuses other than a minor amount of gold per month? I haven't looked into it too much, but that was all I saw, and it wasn't very impressive.

The tyranny reduction on PoP is indeed nice, although there are ways around most tyranny gains in this game if you get creative (e.g. revoke a vassals land freely by granting him as a subvassal to a wrong-religion vassal, then revoking all the wrong-religion vassal's land). I do agree it's still a nice-to-have though.

The dedicated vassal religion thing isn't to deal with heresy per-se, that's just a nice side effect. The main goal is to prevent vassals from converting counties to my religion, which cuts into fervor generation that I can spend on GHWs.
 

Myrten

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The main reason I'd keep theocratic clergy is for theocracy vassals, which have much higher obligations than feudal/city vassals, and don't have an opinion penalty for being at said high obligations. Do leased temple holdings give you bonuses other than a minor amount of gold per month? I haven't looked into it too much, but that was all I saw, and it wasn't very impressive.

The tyranny reduction on PoP is indeed nice, although there are ways around most tyranny gains in this game if you get creative (e.g. revoke a vassals land freely by granting him as a subvassal to a wrong-religion vassal, then revoking all the wrong-religion vassal's land). I do agree it's still a nice-to-have though.

The dedicated vassal religion thing isn't to deal with heresy per-se, that's just a nice side effect. The main goal is to prevent vassals from converting counties to my religion, which cuts into fervor generation that I can spend on GHWs.
I prefer going with pretty much only city-vassals since they cause much less border gore than feudal, give more money and don't require exploits to create like theocratic vassals. Also keep in mind that the more money you take from the vassal the less money he has to upgrade his buildings so the tax base is lower.

In theory when temple is leased to realm priest it gives everything except gold to you back, but I'm not sure if it all works as described, it would have to be tested on smaller realm.
1600184953348.png

The tyranny reduction on PoP is indeed nice, although there are ways around most tyranny gains in this game if you get creative (e.g. revoke a vassals land freely by granting him as a subvassal to a wrong-religion vassal, then revoking all the wrong-religion vassal's land). I do agree it's still a nice-to-have though.
Tyranny reduction can make life much easier - when I played with Bidaic faith with PoP which gives 70% base tyranny reduction (which can be increased to 95% for righteous religion with Defender of the Faith learning perk) I just executed all my sons besides main heir so partition wasn't an issue. Sure there are other ways but it makes life so simpler :)

The dedicated vassal religion thing isn't to deal with heresy per-se, that's just a nice side effect. The main goal is to prevent vassals from converting counties to my religion, which cuts into fervor generation that I can spend on GHWs.
It only makes sense if you are using GHW as temporal HoF, Invasion and Kingdom Holy War once per ruler are enough for my rate of expansion
 

Reman

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In theory when temple is leased to realm priest it gives everything except gold to you back, but I'm not sure if it all works as described, it would have to be tested on smaller realm.
1600184953348.png
Those bonuses definitely don't apply to you. It would be cool if they did, but this is another case of the UI being awful, with the "you" referring to your vassal/lessee. It's a similar issue with those big unique buildings which say they give bonuses to "Your Realm", but that only actually applies if they're in your domain.
 
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Nevars

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Ambitious -> Content
Imo it's not exactly that straight forward between ambitious and content.

Comparing them mechanically ambitious is the better one, + all stats with downside of some stress gain Vs trading 1 intrigue for 2 learning and +10 opinion to your vassal though the content isn't that bad too.

Comparing the hidden downside will still make ambitious better though barely, some stress gain when giving out title Vs can't use some major decisions.

Thing become complicated when you landed your heir so that he can get a head start on lifestyle and prestige because the ambitious ai tend to piss off their own vassal, I have to constantly bailout my ambitious heir when I made him vassal king cuz he seem to bend on cut downsized his Powerful vassal via vassal retract and title revoke.

I have to bailed him out by spam him gift so he can hire a mercenary to take out the rebellion.

Compare to content heir that's simply don't have this problem at all.

So sometime content is actually better than ambitious when you factored all that into account.
 

Jephery

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Theocracy is much stronger than Lay Clergy at the moment. Theocracy gives you a 50% tax rate and 100% levy contribution rate on the temples directly leased by you, instead of the normal 10% tax rate and 25% levy contribution under lay clergy (they're feudal vassals), when you're at 50+ opinion with your realm priest.

For temples not directly under you, the vassal's realm priest pays their liege's realm priest 25% of their taxes and 15% of their levies. That is split with you with the 50% tax/100% levy rates.

But this is skipping a layer of taxation. Instead of getting 25% * 25% = 6.125% of a count's vassal lay clergy temple levy rate, you're getting 15% from the temple as a theocracy. Instead of getting 10% * 10% = 1% tax from the temple baron, you're getting 12.5%.
 
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fodazd

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Imo it's not exactly that straight forward between ambitious and content.

Comparing them mechanically ambitious is the better one, + all stats with downside of some stress gain Vs trading 1 intrigue for 2 learning and +10 opinion to your vassal though the content isn't that bad too.

Comparing the hidden downside will still make ambitious better though barely, some stress gain when giving out title Vs can't use some major decisions.

Thing become complicated when you landed your heir so that he can get a head start on lifestyle and prestige because the ambitious ai tend to piss off their own vassal, I have to constantly bailout my ambitious heir when I made him vassal king cuz he seem to bend on cut downsized his Powerful vassal via vassal retract and title revoke.

I have to bailed him out by spam him gift so he can hire a mercenary to take out the rebellion.

Compare to content heir that's simply don't have this problem at all.

So sometime content is actually better than ambitious when you factored all that into account.
I'm not saying that replacing Ambitious with Content is *necessarily* a bad thing, but when evaluating inner journey as a tenet, I am currently skeptical if it's really worth it. You have no control over which traits will be replaced, and depending on your other tenets, you might get some that are considered sinful, which is pretty much always bad.
 
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nouser

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is "struggle and submission" good when compared to the other war tenets (like "warmongering" and "pursuit of power") ? also, is it possible to change aspexts of a faith (like doctrines) without creating a new faith ?
 

OutsiderSubtype

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Let me throw out Alexandrian Catechism, nothing fancy, just a 20% bonus to probably the best lifestyle tree.
 
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balmung60

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is "struggle and submission" good when compared to the other war tenets (like "warmongering" and "pursuit of power") ? also, is it possible to change aspexts of a faith (like doctrines) without creating a new faith ?
Struggle and Submission is more or less the same as Armed Pilgrimages, except its for Islamic faiths rather than Jewish and Christian faiths. The clan and tribal governments most Muslims have come with the conquest and invasion CBs, no tenet required.

And no. Any change whatsoever creates a new faith.
 

ThePatriot1776

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I take roughly 22 tenets to avoid problems...

RE: Lay clergy vs. Theocratic

If you are the head of the religion for Head of Faith Main Doctrine and Temporal for Clerical Doctrines you get the temple's full levies and taxes. You can own temples at that point.
 

Jeffry

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also, is it possible to change aspexts of a faith (like doctrines) without creating a new faith ?
Not without using console commands (basically cheats) after running the game in debug mode while not playing an ironman game. The console is a handy tool when you wanna test some stuff out. If you're interested in that, search for "console commands" on the CK3 wiki.
 

SunEarth

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Does AI change its behavior because of Divine Blood tenet?
I haven't found any difference between adding Divine Marriage and only setting Consanguinity doctrine to Unrestricted Marriage. Marriage between close family members seems to be rare in both cases.
 

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i always though symilar tenets should slightly improve relations beween people from different religions (+2 relation for each equal tenet) . as religions tend to be less hostile the more they share symilarities.
 

Myrten

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i always though symilar tenets should slightly improve relations beween people from different religions (+2 relation for each equal tenet) . as religions tend to be less hostile the more they share symilarities.
It doesn't work this way in game and it didn't work this way in real life, people waged war over minor theological differences.
 
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balmung60

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It's probably not very meta, but I'm a big fan of sanctity of nature because of just how much combat in many heavily pagan regions involves forest, jungle, and taiga counties with poor supply. Of course, not nearly as useful in continental Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East.
 

Strangedane

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I'm a sucker for the 20% lifestyle experience gain.
 

Panthera_Tigris

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RE: Lay clergy vs. Theocratic

If you are the head of the religion for Head of Faith Main Doctrine and Temporal for Clerical Doctrines you get the temple's full levies and taxes. You can own temples at that point.
And why would you want to do that? They will count against your domain limit. Realm priest gives you 50% of the gold and 100% of the levies anyway as long as you keep opinion above 50.
 
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ThePatriot1776

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And why would you want to do that? They will count against your domain limit. Realm priest gives you 50% of the gold and 100% of the levies anyway as long as you keep opinion above 50.
I get 100% of the gold plus there is a special building from a religion mod I use that gets built. Also, my characters are the head of faith, so it makes sense for them to own the temple.
 
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Nevars

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I get 100% of the gold plus there is a special building from a religion mod I use that gets built. Also, my characters are the head of faith, so it makes sense for them to own the temple.
You only get 100% gold for the one that you own directly and it count for your domain limit meanwhile in theocratice you get 50% gold for evey temple in your realm if you realm priest opinion is positive.

And are we seriously use mod to argue which tenet/doctrine is the best?
 
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ThePatriot1776

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You only get 100% gold for the one that you own directly and it count for your domain limit meanwhile in theocratice you get 50% gold for evey temple in your realm if you realm priest opinion is positive.

And are we seriously use mod to argue which tenet/doctrine is the best?
I usually end up owning around 6 temples directly because I start as the Duke of Spoleto in the 867 start. I take Roma, Viterbo, and Tivoli within 10 years of game start. I've seen my gold go up dramatically from the temples usually around double. Are you saying that I'd be better off by not being the head of the church? I also get the ability to declare Crusades as I'm the head of the religion. With a theocracy you are at the whims of the AI.

Yes, a mod changes things because adds in further depth to the game.
 
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