Too soon? Battletech 2

[kgbraun]

First of all. Thank you very much for this game. Spent a lot of time as teenager with the novels and MechCommander 1 & 2. This game brought back lots of memories and even made me order the last missing novels of Classic Battletech. Furthermore your game became the one in my Steam-library I spent the most time with, even though it is such a "young" game.

I hope your success also made you think not only about DLCs but also about part 2. Some restrictions are just a pity. As far as I understood it mainly has to do with the game-engine you're using.

I guess this kind of discussion is

already ​

running somewhere but in my age you get too lazy to search some times. ;-)

You can call it a wish-list and I hope I don't sound too greedy.
1. Number of Mechs on the battlefield should at least be raised to company-size. For easier handling Lances could be controlled by AI. Tactical Maps/battlefields should be larger so that manouevering could get more flexible. Some Maps offer no real choices how to be played.
2. Strategic Planet Maps. You should be able to choose strategic targets by yourself. Targets could be Depots, Bases, convoys etc. Mission-types that already exist so to say. But it could be much more flexible. Instead of attacking an enemy directly you could wear him down by destroying or capturing his supplies for example.
3. Real Dropships. I was not so happy with the Argo. Most novels describe Merc-Companies as "Dropship-based". I think that should be adapted. Would work great with #2. Moving troops around the planet and hitting where you think it's best. Another aspect that came into play would be supplies. Instead of infinite supply you had to think about transport-capacity. Buying new/larger Dropships would also be great.
4. Air-support. Most Dropships allow to take Aerospace-Fighters along. I guess I don't need to say anything more. ;-). Implementation could be in the sense of a one-time-usable pilot-ability. Larger Dropships would mean stronger air-support of course.
5. Mechs. As much as I like Mech-customization, it should be restricted to OmniMechs or at least it should be made expensive to use non-standard Mech-variants. Running a Company/Battalion/Regiment of standard Inner Sphere Mechs should be awarded in some way. Not going into bankcruptcy is just a start.
6. Timeline. As #5 intends an expansion of the timeline is inevitable. ;-)
7. Reputation. The rep-system seems a bit shallow to me. It would be awesome to able to make real bonds with the factions. In novels you can read about merc-units beeing awarded with estates and even planets. Training-grounds and factories included.
8. Staff. Medical and technical staff should also be experience- and wage-based. Low-experienced and equipped staff should not be able to do certain tasks. For example fusion-core changes or attaching artificial limbs. And they could Play an even more important role in strategic gameplay. For example disaster-relief for planetary population or technical support for local farmers. Up to now this was "hidden" in in-game-events, but it would be great to do such stuff actively.
9....to be continued

Should be enough daydreaming for now. Keep up the great work and also a salute to the modders that add to this great Project.

Edit: Most points I made refer to the sandbox-mode. Though I liked the story the sandbox is what makes me play this game. Writing the story by myself so to say.

 

[BARBOSA (Aries)]

I want my own planet!!! All the cool mercs have one...
And is not like BT-canon will care wherever goes the ownership of a piece of rock backwards like the minor planets of the reach.

 

[EmptyPepsiCan]

We're a reinforced company, not a battalion. We're limited to 18 mechs, with drop capability for 4 - although there's no reason we couldn't buy a second Leopard.

As far as offering choice without violating lore, that's trivial. We aren't grunts, but we're not generals and dukes, either. We're talking about a massive conflict taking place over a massive area over a long period of time. Surely we can all agree that the lore doesn't come anywhere close covering every single campaign, battle, police action, and brushfire that ever transpired anywhere in the galaxy.

Surely the developers can find some large battles of which we could be a small part. Surely they could give us a task like defending a planet from a pirate unit over the course of a half-dozen engagements. Surely we could be assigned to chase a fugitive across a half dozen systems.

Angeli, the problem here is that, frankly, you lack imagination. There's a huge, massive, gigantic amount of space in the lore for company-sized campaigns. Implementing the kind of complex, interesting campaigns that I'm talking about without mucking up the lore would be absolutely trivial.

 

[Jade_Rook]

We're a reinforced company, not a battalion. We're limited to 18 mechs, with drop capability for 4 - although there's no reason we couldn't buy a second Leopard.

Except price. I know some players could still afford to drop 100 million on a new dropship, but not many. Not enough to justify completely reworking the contacts. There are ways around this, but it would not be an easy change.

As far as offering choice without violating lore, that's trivial. We aren't grunts, but we're not generals and dukes, either. We're talking about a massive conflict taking place over a massive area over a long period of time. Surely we can all agree that the lore doesn't come anywhere close covering every single campaign, battle, police action, and brushfire that ever transpired anywhere in the galaxy.

Like the Arano Restoration campaign. It works and there are places something like this can fit without affecting canon... but not many.

Surely the developers can find some large battles of which we could be a small part. Surely they could give us a task like defending a planet from a pirate unit over the course of a half-dozen engagements. Surely we could be assigned to chase a fugitive across a half dozen systems.

Like flashpoints. Or possible linked flashpoints extending across multiple systems. Things they either already have or are working on.

There's a huge, massive, gigantic amount of space in the lore for company-sized campaigns. Implementing the kind of complex, interesting campaigns that I'm talking about without mucking up the lore would be absolutely trivial.

I wouldn't say trivial. Any change of ownership of an Inner Sphere planet is probably a breach of canon. The changing of those borders is pretty well documented. There is more room on the Periphery, but people are also less interested about what goes on out there.

I actually don't mind deviations from canon. Tell a good story, include good gameplay, and I am happy. Alternative histories are perfectly fine. The canon issue isn't a big problem for me, but that doesn't make it a non-issue. The devs have found good ways to work around it so far.

 

[EmptyPepsiCan]

I majored in history back in college. One of the first things that I came to understand is that history is BIG. HUGE. MASSIVE.

Think about how many battles were fought during the Second World War. Now think about how many books have been written about each battle, each general, each service, each unit, each plane, each ship, each rifle...

That's one war on one planet. History is BIG.

The BT Universe is vastly larger than our actual world and has a much longer timeline. The lore, by comparison, is extremely thin. BT has more gaps than lore. There's room for hundreds of company-level player campaigns to be inserted without changing any part of existing BT history.

What I'm talking about is drilling deeper and fleshing out the details, not changing big picture canon. That's trivial when were talking about a mercenary company in a Universe where gigantic, interstellar conflagrations are the norm.

To be clear, I'm not saying that it would be trivial to create another hundred Flashpoints or new system for creating procedurally generated mini-campaigns. What I'm saying is that there's no reason for lore to be an impediment to expanding strategic gameplay and giving the player more interesting choices to make.

 

[Jade_Rook]

The lore may be thin, but it is painted with a broad brush. Pick a planet which changed hands in the Fourth Succession War and there is probably a note about when it was conquered. There are places in there that a company of mechs cam be dropped and a good story can be told about their adventures.

It won't be the same as what we have in this game with a roving merc company jumping between planets. I don't see that as an issue in a sequel.

I'm not even sure why I am arguing lore as a problem. I don't think it will be a trivial issue for a sequel, but it certainly isn't as insurmountable problem.

Gameplay issues are going to be much more important in a game which expands the limit on controllable units. I expect some detail will be lost going from lance to company size to avoid overloading players with info and vastly increased mission durations. Personally I have been contemplating something more like Mech Commander where we give general orders rather than micromanaging exact positions and weapon management.

 

[EmptyPepsiCan]

Have they decided to increase the number of player controlled units? I thought that one lance at a time was carved in stone.

With that assumption in mind, I've always figured that the only option would be to have simulated simultaneous single lance deployments, with the earlier fights impacting the way that later fights played out. Mojo Amok outlined a great way to go about it. It's linked in my signature.

 

[Jade_Rook]

I have seen nothing indicating they will increase the number of controllable units. I thought you were recommending that we control a company.

I have seen a lot of the request to increase the unit cap and to allow the conquering of planets. I don't see those as possible in the current game, but they might be considered for a sequel.

 

[EmptyPepsiCan]

Sorry, I was unclear. I think that a lance is just right (and a whole company would be a nightmare), but that they could make things a lot more interesting and immersive if they allowed us to drop 3-4 lances at once to complete 3-4 parts of the same contract.

If you haven't checked out the link in my signature I encourage you to do so. It lays it all out in excellent detail, plus it's great.

 

[Jade_Rook]

I have seen it before.

It is a good idea.

 

[kgbraun]

We're a reinforced company, not a battalion. We're limited to 18 mechs, with drop capability for 4 - although there's no reason we couldn't buy a second Leopard.

Who is lacking imagination now? ;-) In my opinion it should be made possible to bring at least a company to the field. One player-controlled lance and 2 AI-controlled for example. Or making tactical battles real-time. But for BT it is carved in stone, that you can only lead one lance. That's why the thread is named Battletech 2.

 

[MeiSooHaityu]

All I know is...If there is a BattleTech 2, it needs the sub-title... Electric Boogaloo.

Has a nice ring to it

 

[EmptyPepsiCan]

Who is lacking imagination now? ;-) In my opinion it should be made possible to bring at least a company to the field. One player-controlled lance and 2 AI-controlled for example. Or making tactical battles real-time. But for BT it is carved in stone, that you can only lead one lance. That's why the thread is named Battletech 2.

I just don't think any of that is realistic.

Our battles are typically our lance against 2-3 AI lances. If we scale that up, which we'd need to in order to keep the game challenging, then we're looking at fights with 36-48 units on the field. That would take forever. I suspect that the player only controlling one lance is a Battletech Commandment, carved in stone for all eternity.

Regarding AI control of a couple of my lances, that would be worse. I'd spend most of the battle as a spectator watching the dumb AI break my stuff and get my people killed, and it would still take forever. No thank you, sir.

Real-time fights would be interesting, but that's a completely different game. I just can't see HBS putting all this time into refining their game mechanics, and then scrapping everything and starting from scratch for their sequel. That's not a very economical approach. I'd enjoy a new MechCommander game though.

All of that is why I think that expanding the strategic level of the game is the way to go. The tactical level is well developed and very good, but everything around it is half formed and lackluster. If they addressed the shortcomings without breaking what works this could be a truly epic game.

 

[kgbraun]

Giving up control and having to put command of sub-units in subordinate's hands is a thing every commander has to do. It even would offer completely new options in terms of commanding-skills of the lance-leaders. And of course it would be hard if some AI-noob would waste a complete lance in a kamikaze-attack or running away and screw up your ingenious plan.

Regarding the game-mechanics as they are. They work for BT but I think they are far from being great and definitely should be scrapped for a sequel. If I remember correctly they said themselves that the engine is very limiting in regards of max number of vehicles/mechs. Also map-design isn't great imo. Maps are way too small and should be procedurally generated. After a while you have seen every map and tactics do not vary very much.
At least they should be able to use the models of the mechs again, but everything else should be reworked. Paradox could lend a Hand with that, I think.

 

[Shrike33]

Well actually I bought the house Arano Sourcebook. So officially it is Canon. Its even on Sarna.

 

[kgbraun]

It wasn't canon until the game was published and the source book was announced even later. So please don't do this.

 

[Corraidhin]

One way to increase scope/scale would be to shrink the area you fight in for some parts of a campaign.

Have a loose outline campaign, with flashpoints based around extended campaigns to conquer lesser/rarely mentioned planets.

Combat would effectively take place in concentric rough circles formed from individual maps. deployments would be consecutive, maybe with only salvaged armour available from the current battlefield. Any other refits would be impossible once deployed.

Your deployments would need to be thought out carefully as you have limited mobility at map scale with only your dropship(s) to move lances. Other lances may need to stomp to the next map without (or with limited) armour refit.

Final mission parameters would restrict you to one or two lances as you remaining forces defend your perimeter.

These extended conquer flashpoints would be in service of the factions, so no impact on existing canon lore.

 

[Fedifensor]

Taking a different approach, I'd like to talk about the story for a sequel.

Instead of using the classic betrayal opening that is pretty common, have the main character be the child (biological or adopted) of the character from the first game. You receive a message at the start saying your parents have reached the world where they've chosen to retire, and the Argo is yours. Most of the previous members have retired, formed their own mercenary companies, or joined the Arano Restoration. You have yourself, a new support crew, and three other pilots that are all related to previous NPCs. This would be the setup for both campaign and career mode. Over the course of several plot missions, you should be drawn to Kurita space, eventually reaching the northern fringe just as a certain unknown group of mechs enter the Inner Sphere...

The Argo starts out having taken significant battle damage from a pirate attack or something similar, so only a fraction of its systems are running. Ideally, the event that damages the Argo should happen during the first mission, when you start on planet doing a mission with a few NPCs (similar to how you started in the first game). Let the player pick their own stock mech of up to 55 tons, and the other Argo pilots should start with light or medium mechs. Also, start the PC with some decent funds - enough to customize their mech and maybe upgrade one of the Argo's systems, while still being able to make payroll for a few months.

Upgrades for the Argo should be similar to before, with a few new additions. It would be nice to see options for improved maintenance bays that reduce the cost to keep a Mech active, or improved living quarters options that reduce the cost to maintain a pilot. That way, instead of spending money and also increasing your monthly expenditures in the process, you can spend a large amount of money to reduce some of your monthly costs.

 

[EmptyPepsiCan]

Honestly, I don't care about the story at all. I just want a fully realized sandbox mode with lots of strategic and tactical depth and with mission design similar to Mojo Amok's excellent Graphical Mock-Up of Multi-Mission Contracts.

 

[Simon1812]

Nexus' Galaxy at War mod is as sand boxy as it gets PepsiCan, I would recommend BT Extended 3025 Commander Edition which includes this mod and many cool feature that spice up the vanilla experience quite a bit.