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Grallak

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Hey, so the game has finally been more or less completed, with bugs being dealt with in anticipation of the release. Now I would like to ask how people feel on the mechanics on a whole and if they think the game has been made to generic and casual friendly for more hoi3 veterans to really enjoy.

In my personal opinion I think we have had more good things than bad, considering how hoi3 was like a can of spiders for those without mods and the patience to thrust themselves into the game, with bad AI where exploitation was the way to "WIN" the game.

For example Japan. Daniel managed to (if you except time he paused for talking and such) managed to set up Japan's strategy in less than half an hour, but any player who saw what he did could get Japan up and running in a few minutes at the very least. While I have to point out that Daniel did admit he didn't know a lot about Japan (Shameful Dishpray) which kind of hurts for people like me who loves to play as Japan in anygame (EU4 Victoria Hoi3 Shogun fall of the samurai, all great fun even though AI is questionable). I would want to use my Navy to sort of send troops behind the chinese so that instead of having my troops garrisoned, I would set them up along the river near shangdong to have them delay any chinese reinforcements to the frontline while I send my reserve infantry to attack the main frontline from behind. He didn't bother securing ports from the onset of the conflict before the AI had a chance to reinforce them or try to use his garrison troops to harass the chinese away from the frontlines and delay them from reinforcing them. Didn't have any garrisons ready to occupy the mountains with the communists etc etc. Yes, Daniel is not very well versed in Japan, but I don't see him losing the conflict because of that (Wouldn't make a whole lot of sense playing as Japan only to fail after one two diaries) but I feel that my expertise in Asian warfare and knowledge from fighting China in Hoi3 as Japan is downsized, just making it a simple not super planned invasion other than using what already exists other than skipping sending half your army to Shanghai and not help the main invasion like historical. I know a lot of people who completely neglect using their main advantage over china (their navy) and just go straight to killing chinese. Also the kill death ratio is ludicrous. 1K japanese soldiers for 100K chinese is just absurd. China would lose 100 million troops for 1 million japanese soldiers if that was the case, and while it is true a lot of them died from being cut off, atleast 50k died from combat. Again Daniel had prepared, but you would think the AI would have prepared for some kind of defense aswell.

What I am getting at is Japan and china needs to be balanced and if you don't make any serious tactic other than Daniel which is basically Kill all loot all then you shouldn't be able to take china after a few months, but years. China is supposed to be killed fast so that you can reassign your troops to SU to continue with the hokuron tactic, because those troops will basically have nothing to do for most of the conflict and should be used to bait SU to send troops away from Europe to Asia to help Germany secure victory. Again, don't know if all numbers have been balanced, and Daniel might show what he is doing in another video. Might just be ranting cus I always work super hard to make battle plans and so.

TL DR: is the game a simplification or is it moving in the right direction? If so why and where?

Is the AI good? Does it realize it can't beat the player and decide to fall back to rivers and mountains where it can set up a better defense or simply tries to delay and breakthrough where it can?

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...arts-of-iron-version-of-history.901707/page-7
In this thread I discussed among other things my concern that Japan was simplified to a large decree by dictating from day one that it was too simple to reject the fact that Japan was a democracy at the time but with a lot of factionalism in it that encouraged nepotism and the military in particular. I think not having the choice as Japan to be a democracy is kind of harsh, since it still hadn't outlawed political parties and they still had elections. The parties of the time weren't against military expansion and generally favored better ties with America and China to combat communism. The democratic parties in Japan have been completely removed all together, which doesn't give us a lot of opportunity to choose a democratic Japan, unless we want to damage our unity even more and maybe even lose Manchuria and Korea, which would never be worth it. Also, why was Matsui moved to a level 1 General? I find it unfair since while he was old, he was still dedicated to preserve good relations with the chinese. I think giving him some kind of trait which allows provinces that he helped conquered were less likely to disrupt infrastructure and be able to absorb more manpower. He was a staunch buddhist and didn't like how the people were treated so giving him something to make up for his low rank would be a fair matching.
 
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Well Daniel said the AI is very good but it is still getting improved and tweaked and game is still getting balanced (atleast Daniel won't steamroll the USSR this time around :p)

and on domains of micro management yes it is. I can now make battle plans properly and individually micro manage here and there if I want to without deassigning from my command group and back like in HOI3 if my front was on AI mode and I needed troops to kill off partisans or event spawned troops (damn you USA...). In hoi3 the airforce was a pain, in HOI4 its more streamlined and much easier to use, which is much better. HOI3 air mechanics for some might be good but for me it was a utter nightmare that I never built an airforce or even remotely used 1.
 

YellowMoonshine

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Well first I'd say that Daniel deliberately rushed the conflict so that he could show off mechanics, if he had prepared properly he could have made a more complex plan with naval invasions like you said. Secondly he only showed the very start of the war. The high Chinese losses are because he sent his better equipped and trained in a surprise attack across the narrow front and managed to surround several divisions. When the front expands he will have trouble with the few divisions that he has, and have trouble creating new one considering his current poor supply situation and war losses. Also he has left his Soviet front exposed to do this. Depending on if Paradox models the border conflict between them (which I think they will considering they modeled the border conflict between the China's) he might be in real trouble.
 
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When I first saw the changes I was very much against the simplification and then I started playing HoI3 again and realized that I was spending the whole game wishing I had a human player to give half of my forces to or my entire airforce and navy because of how complex the game is. I was never able to get any of my friends into the game because they like to figure out games on their own and HoI3 was so daunting that they gave up when setting up their initial OOB. To clarify the 8 of us all play Civ5, endless space, MoO, GoT, All the A&A games on the board as well as the Axis and Allies computer game so we are fairly well versed in strategy games and enjoy them but HoI3 was just too much.

If a game requires at least two people well versed in strategy games to play as one country then it's too complex. The complexity is why I love it so much but it can be exhausting.
 
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When I first saw the changes I was very much against the simplification and then I started playing HoI3 again and realized that I was spending the whole game wishing I had a human player to give half of my forces to or my entire airforce and navy because of how complex the game is. I was never able to get any of my friends into the game because they like to figure out games on their own and HoI3 was so daunting that they gave up when setting up their initial OOB. To clarify the 8 of us all play Civ5, endless space, MoO, GoT, All the A&A games on the board as well as the Axis and Allies computer game so we are fairly well versed in strategy games and enjoy them but HoI3 was just too much.

If a game requires at least two people well versed in strategy games to play as one country then it's too complex. The complexity is why I love it so much but it can be exhausting.
This is why I always played as secondary powers, and never a major. It's just easier to manage all your forces.

God help you if you try to play Britain in HOI3.
 
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This is why I always played as secondary powers, and never a major. It's just easier to manage all your forces.

God help you if you try to play Britain in HOI3.
Atleast you are not having your convoys and submarines sunk every nanosecond :p

On a serious note, why is it not possible to unite Asia as Japan in the form of a democracy??? (Albeit puppets and firmly under Japanese influence, of course)
Japan installed puppets and while it did exploit a lot of them and had troops, the US or any other nation down there wasn't much better themselves (I don't think they even had elections or whatever in Dutch indochina. Evil Dutchmen) I just don't see WHY it isn't a possible to have a strong Oligarchy in Japan with certain military expansive leanings (up until the point they have 'Liberated' the rest of Asia from the evil imperialists). England used a lot of former Indian lords and the aristocracy to control people in India and they killed millions during their conquests of different countries. So why is it that when Japan is atleast trying to unify Japan into some kind of Pro Japan ASEAN EU, then they are facists? They are definitely not nice but who was at that time? I just think it is too much railroad and over simplification and removes the option for a more "humane" liberation of Asia. Once Japan had won, what would have stopped them from doing sweeping reforms (albeit unlikely with the growing popularity of the conquests) but a lot of people don't know that the Japanese people themselves didn't have it much better than the countries being conquered. Their work ethics are bullshit to this date if you compare it to any other developed nation. Wouldn't the population once the war is over rather become a democracy, but perhaps doesn't feel like doing like the SU and release a lot of nations while doing it? What prevents Korea from declaring independence? or does it simply become a puppet?
 
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This is why I always played as secondary powers, and never a major. It's just easier to manage all your forces.

God help you if you try to play Britain in HOI3.

Meh, I loaded up HoI, remembered the OOB and uninstalled it. I cannot be arsed.

And that's the problem, I think the vast majority of people were turned off the moment they got into the game. So any simplification on HoI4's part is a good thing, just so long as it doesn't become "Just click this button to win." Which I don't think the devs will allow to happen anyway.
 
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It's certainly simplified, but that's in comparison to HoI3 which was extraordinarily convoluted, tedious, and opaque. So that simplification isn't a bad thing. Have they over-corrected in that regard? Quite possibly. There are some very strange omissions (OOBs are gone, fuel & logistics are Civ-esque in terms of complexity, no production licences) which are not reassuring.

We haven't seen much of the AI yet (this is only the first WWW which is showcasing single-player after all) but so far it's a bit of a mixed bag.
  1. The AI had no reserve behind its fighting line to plug any gaps. There's really no excuse for not having a reserve.
  2. On the plus side, it seemed to be aware that only two provinces needed to fall to cut those northern divisions off from supply. There's a stretch of roughly 4-6 provinces that needed more troops than the rest of the line, and it had them. If you look at 53:07 on the youtube clip you'll see that troop concentration of 3-8 divisions in most of those critical provinces compared to the single division per province to the north. It's entirely possible that this was a fluke though.
  3. It's difficult to tell if the AI was attempting to either break out of the pocket or cut off the divisions that created the pocket. It's possible that it was simply overrun. If not though then this is a major flaw.
If the AI is unable to respond to the encircling their forces then it hasn't really advanced since HoI 3 which was susceptible to the same strategy.

The biggest problem with simplifying gameplay mechanics (even where that simplification is warranted) is that it takes attention away from the process and directs it towards the end result. The end result in this case being combat against an AI. If removing that simplification hasn't been accompanied by an increase in the capability of the AI to perform against the player then it's a step in the wrong direction.
 
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Sorry the entire OOB system in HOI3 was a nightmare for me. It just wasn't fun. I wanted to play a game not OOB naming simulator 2010. I for one am glad they canned it.
 
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It's certainly simplified, but that's in comparison to HoI3 which was extraordinarily convoluted, tedious, and opaque. So that simplification isn't a bad thing. Have they over-corrected in that regard? Quite possibly. There are some very strange omissions (OOBs are gone, fuel & logistics are Civ-esque in terms of complexity, no production licences) which are not reassuring.

We haven't seen much of the AI yet (this is only the first WWW which is showcasing single-player after all) but so far it's a bit of a mixed bag.
  1. The AI had no reserve behind its fighting line to plug any gaps. There's really no excuse for not having a reserve.
  2. On the plus side, it seemed to be aware that only two provinces needed to fall to cut those northern divisions off from supply. There's a stretch of roughly 4-6 provinces that needed more troops than the rest of the line, and it had them. If you look at 53:07 on the youtube clip you'll see that troop concentration of 3-8 divisions in most of those critical provinces compared to the single division per province to the north. It's entirely possible that this was a fluke though.
  3. It's difficult to tell if the AI was attempting to either break out of the pocket or cut off the divisions that created the pocket. It's possible that it was simply overrun. If not though then this is a major flaw.
If the AI is unable to respond to the encircling their forces then it hasn't really advanced since HoI 3 which was susceptible to the same strategy.

The biggest problem with simplifying gameplay mechanics (even where that simplification is warranted) is that it takes attention away from the process and directs it towards the end result. The end result in this case being combat against an AI. If removing that simplification hasn't been accompanied by an increase in the capability of the AI to perform against the player then it's a step in the wrong direction.
Agreed. The AI should take preparations beforehand and assign their troops after what neighbour constitutes the most likely threat. Again the lack of reserves and no attempt to avoid being encircled can't be seen as much other than bad logic. The casualty rate was just absurdly in favor of Japan. Should this continue in the next WWW then China will be out of manpower before Daniel manages to occupy all provinces. I draw parallells with his invasion of SU where the Soviet union folded almost immediately which is absolutely ludicrous. Sure, I know that version was old and unbalanced, but if it continues like it was then (I really hope it doesn't) then the AI will be useless.

Incase anyone was wondering, just as a fun note. 駐屯 chuton means garrison. 旅団 ryodan means regiment. 混生 konsei means mixed. 歩兵 hohei means infantry. 騎兵 kihei means cavalry. 師団 means division. Incase you 独立 means independent (not quite sure how) 基地 basically means base but not that they are garrison. what you want to know is Mixed infantry and garrison aswell as cavalry.機動部隊 kidou butai means mechanized troops, although that much should be self explanatory by looking. You will want to use mixed and infantry most of the time in Japan, but mostly your best troops since infrastructure will be so low, which is why you should use your extra troops to establish new frontlines on shangdong (China's equivalence of Florida) to surround people. The game has so far failed to explain how exactly you redirect your supplies to other places and how it works. If you manage to take the Chinese ports and hold them using garrisons with naval artillery support then receiving supplies along the coast will be a lot easier and allow the player to basically invade from anywhere near that port.

I would also love to see the AI taking more initiative to counter the player's battleplans. If the player makes a front line then the enemy should copy it and follow along the axis of it. It should also be able to do random attacks where it puts more troops somewhere along the frontline to achieve breakthrough and try to encircle the player more often. AI has never been good but it should atleast understand the basic structure of military exchange.
 
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Ostheim

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HOI3 was full of awkward over complication IMO, it looks like they learned from some of those mistakes... I think HOI4 looks like a solid sequel, made with a balanced understanding of what was great about HOI2 and what was lacking. HOI3 felt to me like a totally different game by totally different people than a normal paradox game, tried hard to 'get into it' but never could... just saying
 
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ausfatcat

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I got hoi3 years ago, spent ages trying to figure it out and gave up on it.
A few years later I got darkest hour and loved it straight away but after a while wanted a bit more from it, which made me revisit hoi 3 and enjoyed it a lot more (I got a lot saved game crashes thou) but the OOB it was very time consuming, I liked at the beginning but having to stop the game a reorganise every few months got very tedious and took away from the game and concentrating in other area's.
Ideal hoi 4 would be somewhere between darkest hour and hoi 3 for complexity which it seems to be but wont know until 8 to 10 hours into gameplay imo.
 
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safe-keeper

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Tough question to answer.

In my eyes, HOI3 didn't get a "fair" assessment of how complex it was because the UI was so intimidating and caused so much tedious micro-management. Things like building an OOB/COC were just plain boring. It could be "fun" to create a command structure for your elite tanks or whatnot, but most of the time it was just this chore you had to do before your got to play the game. If there had been a few more features in place to streamline this process, it could've been a really good feature, and I will miss the command structure thing in HOI4. If the game had done most of the work for you and left you to do only the "tinkering" you felt like, it'd probably have been more favourably received.

I feel HOI4 is doing a good job at both keeping and adding complexity and depth, and at the same time stay user-friendly. It's also throwing some stuff out, but all things considered it seems deeper than its predecessor.
 
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Number 7

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Heres how i see it - HOI3 isn't actually as complicated as you think. the most complicated part of HOI3 was a very flawed supply system. it had its highlights, but overall it all stemming from the capital, and usually favouring certain paths (rather going through a swamp than taking the shiny railroad next to it!) was all a bit obtuse.

the AI in hoi3 was really bad, they mostly won by numbers and strength, not by any kind of specific strategy. I can't think of a single time in HOI3 i felt like the AI was smart. the german AI would regularily bash its head against the maginot and go over it even when it had opened up the front in belgium and the netherlands. the russian AI if a player was so inclined could be crushed by simply letting them invade into a pocket you created for them and then closing the pocket on the majority of their army. it was an oblivious AI.

the HOI3 china situation was no better. you claim you needed any kind of specialised knowledge to defeat china, well not really. the Sino-japanese war would end in HOI3 in 2-3 months without much difficulty. you didn't need any kind of fancy maneuvers. you just push from the north, the chinese will pull all its troops up there and then you land along the coast and the war is over as you push in and grab VPs against meager resistance.

of course, this is talking about vanilla HOI3. if you enjoyed mods such as HPP or black ice, those are mods and will no doubt see a comeback in HOI4 to make the game more complex than it is at the launch.

to address your points directly:

Daniel set up japan quickly: That's a good thing. He didn't do anything you dont do in HOI3 except the OOB. the OOB was nice, i liked it. I'm sad its gone, but i accept it. it was a lot of work to set up, and it was mostly for a player's own benefit and for immersion. everything else he did was:

  • Set up his production (you do this in HOI3, but its more complex in HOI4)
  • Set up his research (shocker, you do this in HOI3)
  • set up his national focus (not even in hoi3, instead it was just events you click once conditions have been met, more complex in hoi4)
  • set up his army for the war in china, splitting his regulars from his garrisons (this is a major pain in hoi3.... just the act of moving garrisons around using dedicated transports ugh)
  • set up his navy
  • set up his airforce
None of this is stuff you don't do in hoi3 (except national focus :p). the difference is the way you do it has been improved to be a lot more user friendly. I'm really glad it has become more user friendly, a game is meant to work with you, not against you

China's massive casaulties: I have a theory about this. Japan started with a deficit of equipment it needed, perhaps china started under similiar circumstances. Daniel declared the war REALLY EARLY. the sino japanese war is usually 1937, and perhaps it was blitzed so fast in this particular game that the chinese forces didn't even have the equipment to fight. I imagine even if they did have the equipment they didn't have a stockpile to back it up

So in the first days of battle they are already out of equipment and cant be resupplied properly. This is a balance issue about letting the war be declared so crazy fast and hopefully paradox will help fix it.

however - its possible daniel is about to face stiff resistance as the chinese united front expands and more and more forces join against his, as his supply lines get longer and his attrition increases. Perhaps this war is going to see him pushed back. i'd hope this is the case, that would be pretty intriguing. lets watch for another week or two and then make a judgement on the china situation.

Not needing chinese ports: He kind of does need them, if you were watching, he was fighting at the absolute limit of his supply and the AI wouldn't even let some troops come to the front line because it would cause supply deficits. He was just ignoring them because he went clickpocalypse now mode and as i said before, may come back to haunt him if china has been suitably buffed over its HOI3 incarnation.

or it wont, we shall see.


TL:DR - a lot of HOI3's "complexity" comes from struggling with the UI to do basic things that hoi4 lets you do with absolute ease. that doesn't make hoi4 more simple, it makes it more elegant. i'd also be shocked if the AI wasnt improved, because HOI3 AI was shockingly awful at the game.
 
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Heatth

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however - its possible daniel is about to face stiff resistance as the chinese united front expands and more and more forces join against his, as his supply lines get longer and his attrition increases. Perhaps this war is going to see him pushed back. i'd hope this is the case, that would be pretty intriguing. lets watch for another week or two and then make a judgement on the china situation.

This. The stream ended just as China started receiving reinforcements. And Daniel was clearly concerned by the end of it, frankly trying to menage his army as DDRJake was wrapping up the episode. I wouldn't be surprised if a push back happens. The most extreme situation would have Japan being pushed out of the continent, which would be a nice warning against early, unprepared, war.
 
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LordOfWar16

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I completly disagree that it is simplified, but rather streamlined. All they did was throwing out the unessesary, tedious anoying micromanagement, to give you more time for important, fun decissions. I would even go as far and say its more complex, due to the stockpile mechanic, which means you now also need to manage equipment production, rather than simply division production as with HoI III. You are also no longer able to build Bismarcks in Bavaria, since you now have factories instead of generic "IC" Values.
 
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