Too many stats in my face - get rid of them please.

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Daelyn75

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Whereas I love the way the later Paradox games are becoming more user friendly I dont like the way stats are everywhere. I play another game Making History: The Great War - played it more than any Paradox game I own - three times more in fact. Its more immediate is one reason, but also one of the things that is great about that game is the way all the stats are hidden.

So for example you know subs can attack ships and remaining hidden but you dont know what the exact numbers are. That creates immersion. I am attacking a ship with a sub because it is sensible to not get hit back, because I know from gameplay experience rather than because the stats tell me why it is sensible. I dont even know what the figures are in that game. So I am not thinking about them.

In EU 4 and CK2 and HOI3 stats are everywhere, you are looking at the stats and thinking 'should I use mountaineer because they gain 10% bonus in snow' etc etc rather than 'I should use mountaineers because I am fighting in the mountains'.

HoI4 would definitely be much improved by hiding away the stats. By all means have them in a log somewhere or cover them in an encyclopedia but I dont want to see them in my face.

MH:TGW is great because you are playing the game not studying the stats, you are learning as you play and half of the time you dont even know what numbers are being used you are only aware of the effects. That is what a game like this should be like. I want to learn the game through experience not have every stat spelled out for me so there is no surprise. I dont want to be using a general because he gives 10%+ speed to units - I want to use him because he can use 'force march' or whatever.

Its just something I have noticed in all of the Paradox games that always ruins them for me. No more stats in my face please!!

And yes I know I may be in the minority on this forum with this idea! Probably in the same way as I am in the minority because I hate using NATO symbols in wargames.

But is Paradox creating games for the super passionate grognards who frequent these forums every day or for the everyday gamer who want to get immersed and surprised and wants the number crunching hidden away from him ???
I've heard good things about Making History: World War I, and after I read your post I figured I'd go and check it out for once. It looked good until I saw this review of it by AVB Gaming on steam-

"I'm a big fan of all the Paradox games like Europa Universalis, Victoria, and Hearts of Iron. I really wanted to like this game, set exclusively in the First World War. But the problems with it are too great to overcome.

PROS
- It's nicely complicated, like the Paradox games.
- The graphics are as good as one would like for this type of game.
- Naval warfare is better than any of the Paradox games.

CONS
- First and foremost, there is no concept of supply, really. The AI sends units to the most outlandish places with no hope of being supplied. For instance, I was playing Austria Hungary and late in 1914 I was attacked by several Japanese infantry units coming from Finland. That is not an isolated incident.
- Provinces are empty, leading to constant whack-a-mole in your rear areas. Bad enough with rebel uprisings, but when a random cavalry unit from a country 12,000 miles away pops up and conquers half your nation, (see above), it's a real problem. Every game designer should program the EU model where every province has some sort of garrison automatically.
- The AI in general is just poor. No concept of depth in defense, reinforcing weak areas or bottlenecks, and so on. Pretty common in these types of games.

SUMMARY
Nice ideas, nice-looking game, but hamstrung by bizarre AI, lack of supply, and various small bugs with units popping up in the middle of nowhere."

Or from Strangest Danger -

"This game isn't terrible, but it has a few problems that makes it a terrible Great War simulator. Here is the run-down:

1. Allied forces are HEAVILY favored. What do I mean by that? Simple, all the units on the different sides of the conflict are equivalent. A German infantry is equal to that of a French or Russian infantry. The German military was the best trained, the best equipped, and the best supported army in the conflict. Some would even put this military on par with the greatest militaries of all time. Russia, on the other hand, was supposed to be slow to mobilize and ill-equipped. I played a game where AI Russia was in Berlin before the end of 1914. Because the units are equal in strength, the Allies, with huge size advantages, will likely always win.

2. Serbia is too weak. Historically, Serbia lasted a surprisingly long time. In this game, Serbia doesn't have even close to enough resources to supply its comparatively huge military. Austria-Hungary rolls them up as a matter of course, because the Serbians starve to death and run out of guns.

3. Belgium is too strong. I played a game where Belgium completely repelled Germany (one of the greatest militaries in history), and even took ground in Germany.

4. The Allied forces start with Great Britain already involved. GB wasn't keen on getting in on this war, and only planned on doing so if Belgium's neutrality was violated. GB also only had the expeditionary forces on hand to wage a land war, in this game they seem to have a pretty healthy army from the start.

5. Austria-Hungary is too good. The Great War is the tale about how Austria-Hungary constantly did the exact opposite of what Germany wanted, and as a result, they were getting pummelled by everyone, including the Kingdom of Serbia. The only force AH knows how to fight is Italy, which leads to the next point:

6. Italy is too strong. Historically, Italy failed to take the exact same river 9+ times against Austria. In this game, it's only a little harder than taking any other position.

I'm sure there are other problems, but let's move on to mechanics:

1. The Great War was insane. Battles went no where, and the defenders always had the advantage. Hence, both sides would put up trenches, and fortify, fortify, fortify. Attacks were suicidal. This game doesn't do trench warfare well because the units and regions are too large. These trenches were separated by only a few hundred yards, loaded with barbed wire, and supervised by machine guns and artillery. Units would stand at a stalemate for months at a time, with no progress being made, constantly under a hail of shells. In this game, you have to commit massive armies to an attack, and the attack lasts until one side loses. Smaller units or smaller regions would help solve this issue.

2. You can always see all the units of the enemy. Observation planes and observation balloons only give your artillery bonuses to hit (which they need, because they can barely ever hit). This is not a good feature for a game where air superiority meant you knew where your enemey was, and they didn't know where you were.

3. Big, important advances (such as metal helmets) aren't commented on in the game. You also can't upgrade units (as far as I can tell), which makes no sense, considering the only different based on technology would be equipment. Upgrading a units defense by giving them helmets sounds pretty easy to me.

4. Diplomacy is difficult to achieve, because it takes place over lengthy, incremental time periods. Far longer than the scope of the game. I tried playing the US in the 1912 campaign start, with the goal making a Western Hemisphere alliance, but for some reason only Nicaragua was interested. I offered aid to many countries, and every couple of turns, they cancel the aid (why give up free money, I ask). The AI just sells you stuff until they run out of stuff, and they buy stuff until they think they have enough stuff. There is not indication of a desire to reach sustainability. Aside from war, that is every diplomatic choice you really have with them, except for the absolutely pointless support factions options. I say it is pointless because I couldn't find a point. I couldn't see any change over time whatsoever.

This is just a short list of what I found disappointing about this game. What I wanted was an accurate, defensive shlog that would reflect the Great War. What I got was a game where offensive movement is far too easy to accomplish."

Now, I won't bother with it.
 
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Gethsemani

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The problem with obscuring numbers is that it only means that I'll have to alt-tab to whatever website/xml-document has all the numbers. Those that want numbers will find them, whatever it means playing with the manual PDF open in the background or someone going into the game code to pull the numbers from there and re-post them as a Steam Guide or forum thread. Since this is inevitable but will put many players off since they can't readily find the information ("What is the exact difference between 1938 Fighter and 1940? Is it worth researching over better Bombers?"), it is simply better to make sure the game gives you all the information you need.

As far as immersion or realism goes, while real life generals probably talked about how their mountain troops had this or that equipment necessary for mountain fighting or how some armor divisions had a heavy armor component great for breaching a fortified line, we don't have that granularity. As players of a game trying to simulate the war the best we can get is that we know that mountain troops get bonii (or less malus) in mountains and that heavy tanks give higher soft attack, making it better at killing infantry.
 
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Secret Master

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I've played strategy games with hidden numbers and "spurious information." That game was HOI3 :)

If you said to me "There is too much information and the interface makes it difficult to digest all that information," then I might see your point.

But here's an HOI3 example of just how hidden game mechanics in HOI3 were even with all those numbers in your face.

At one point when SF was released, toughness as a game mechanic was simply not working at all. The Devs missed it, the betas missed it, and most of the community missed it. The entire game had been balanced around gameplay where one mechanic was simply not working. It wasn't until someone finally dove into the numbers and could mathematically prove that something was wrong before we all figured it out. Literally 95% of the player base was using a stat and planning builds around a stat that did absolutely nothing. Talk about pointless gameplay in a strategy game.

If a game with all those numbers present could still be mysterious, imagine how much more difficult it would be to formulate a good strategy with even less information.
 
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TheCrimsonMajor

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A lack of transparency in gameplay mechanics and hidden stats frustrated so many people who played earlier iterations of HoI. I think it's great that they're making these details more visible, especially through tooltips. You can always build sub-optimal divisions for flavor or RP purposes.
 
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Alex_brunius

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Why not have two modes, one default with stats shown and optional "beginner" mode where most stats are hidden and can be exposed on demand if you want?
 
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Nats

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Yes well I suspected I would be in a minority on this forum about this. I like the idea of two options one with and one without stats. And some stats I dont mind like stats for country relations etc to show whether you are improving relations or not. But Its all the other little spurious numbers and factors that I dont like that affect everything in the game. They are interesting and good to know the game is that complex but I dont want to see them during my gameplay.

And about that other post trashing MH:TGW, sure it has some faults like any game really and its small fry compared to the Paradox games but I for one prefer it to all the Paradox games I have played to date (pretty much all of them). I think I will enjoy HOI4 but MHTGWs blessing is in its ease of picking up and playing - and its a lot more difficult than it makes out and its got some really interesting events!

Its not got the complexity of Vic2 or HOI3 but when that complexity puts you off running the game for an hours play because you haven't played it for a few months and you have forgotten how the factory mechanics or the unit heirarchy system works - thats not necessarily a bad thing. Keeps me playing it anyway.

It has surprised me just how long I have been playing it, its my second most played game on Steam. I have found most of the Paradox games quite repetitive in comparison. Once I start seeing things repeating in a game (CK2 it took me around 60 hrs) I start going off it usually. When you look at the amount of Paradox games I own and have played, it is strange that the most enjoyment I have got is with that little game. Go figure!

Anyway yeah it was just a thought, not all the HOI, or potential HOI players, want NATO tokens and stats galore. Sometimes its better to hide the mechanics away and let the players figure these things out themselves.