Too many stats in my face - get rid of them please.

[Nats]

Whereas I love the way the later Paradox games are becoming more user friendly I dont like the way stats are everywhere. I play another game Making History: The Great War - played it more than any Paradox game I own - three times more in fact. Its more immediate is one reason, but also one of the things that is great about that game is the way all the stats are hidden.

So for example you know subs can attack ships and remaining hidden but you dont know what the exact numbers are. That creates immersion. I am attacking a ship with a sub because it is sensible to not get hit back, because I know from gameplay experience rather than because the stats tell me why it is sensible. I dont even know what the figures are in that game. So I am not thinking about them.

In EU 4 and CK2 and HOI3 stats are everywhere, you are looking at the stats and thinking 'should I use mountaineer because they gain 10% bonus in snow' etc etc rather than 'I should use mountaineers because I am fighting in the mountains'.

HoI4 would definitely be much improved by hiding away the stats. By all means have them in a log somewhere or cover them in an encyclopedia but I dont want to see them in my face.

MH:TGW is great because you are playing the game not studying the stats, you are learning as you play and half of the time you dont even know what numbers are being used you are only aware of the effects. That is what a game like this should be like. I want to learn the game through experience not have every stat spelled out for me so there is no surprise. I dont want to be using a general because he gives 10%+ speed to units - I want to use him because he can use 'force march' or whatever.

Its just something I have noticed in all of the Paradox games that always ruins them for me. No more stats in my face please!!

And yes I know I may be in the minority on this forum with this idea! Probably in the same way as I am in the minority because I hate using NATO symbols in wargames.

But is Paradox creating games for the super passionate grognards who frequent these forums every day or for the everyday gamer who want to get immersed and surprised and wants the number crunching hidden away from him ???

 

[Aries666]

Hiding information in a strategy game is not conducive to good strategy.

 

[Zaku]

Playing a strategy game is all about working with numbers.
If you don't like min maxing you can play in an easier difficulity, and still win the game.

 

[fabius]

Not seeing stats; not knowing what is going on is frustrating.

I want more stats. I find them and knowing what is happening and why more immersive.

 

[Nats]

Hiding information in a strategy game is not conducive to good strategy.

Hmm I am not talking about lack of information I am talking about how you get the information. Do I want it spelled out to me in stats or do I want to figure it out myself? Did Hitler have stats when he started trying to take over the world? No he had to use his gut feelings and help from his advisors. Stats are a rubbish way to portray information. I hate the stats in Paradox games - they just kill any immersion completely. How can you be immersed in a game when all you are looking at is spurious numbers. And half of the time the numbers are plucked out of thin air. For example:

• Fortress Buster: Divisions have +20% Attack when attacking a fort.

I mean who says this is a sensible mechanic. I for one would rather not know it and just know that a commander with this trait is better at taking out fortresses. Why do I need the stat at all?

 

[CyberianK]

I love stats and numbers and minmaxing calculating stuff and I always thought that was part of all the strategy games experiences and why peoples are drawn to it?

I am confused that does not seem to be the case for everyone enjoying these games.

 

[hewhoispale]

While I think that a stat-less interface would be an interesting mod for HoI, I don't think it would be appropriate for the base experience.

 

[namuseta]

Either stats are in game or in forums think what is more user friendly

 

[bkuepers]

I disagree with the OP about wanting to remove the stats. Stats are crucial to the strategical planning aspect of the HOI series. I couldn't imagine the game without it nor would I want to play it.

 

[RogalDorn]

I suspect that I play the way you do. I almost try and role play when I Paradox. So honestly the number crunching just gets in the way. Bear in mind I have a ridiculous amount of playtime in Paradox games. But I just ignore the non production numbers in HOI3 completely. I research, I judge effectiveness based on what year of tech I am using, I make divisions. I try to use terrain to my advantage by not being an idiot with the divisions that get used in theaters. All the unit numbers are super unnecessary for me to have a great time and perform well. I think they should feel free to leave them all in, but it would be amazing if there was a button to just turn off the info so I can wargame in peace. It's not like the leaders and generals of the day had up to date accurate info that they could immediately react too...

 

[fabius]

Hmm I am not talking about lack of information I am talking about how you get the information. Do I want it spelled out to me in stats or do I want to figure it out myself? Did Hitler have stats when he started trying to take over the world? No he had to use his gut feelings and help from his advisors. Stats are a rubbish way to portray information. I hate the stats in Paradox games - they just kill any immersion completely. How can you be immersed in a game when all you are looking at is spurious numbers. And half of the time the numbers are plucked out of thin air. For example:

• Fortress Buster: Divisions have +20% Attack when attacking a fort.

I mean who says this is a sensible mechanic. I for one would rather not know it and just know that a commander with this trait is better at taking out fortresses. Why do I need the stat at all?

Hitler may not have bothered himself with the stats and figures (look how that worked out). But there were professionals looking at them, at least from WW1. And I'd would not be surprised if they were used before that.

I get what you are saying about 20% fort attack. I hard number would be better in some ways- but there are so many variables that the 20% impacts I guess there would not be 1 hard number.

Making History: The Great War, isn't that more towards the Axis & Allies end of the spectrum. If so then a little chalk and cheese contrast with HoI

 

[Wulf145]

In EU 4 and CK2 and HOI3 stats are everywhere, you are looking at the stats and thinking 'should I use mountaineer because they gain 10% bonus in snow' etc etc rather than 'I should use mountaineers because I am fighting in the mountains'.

Believe it or not, but that is exactly what I want to have to think about when playing a WW2 strategy game - if I don't want to think about 'Stats' then I play "Risk".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_(game)

 

[Axe99]

While I agree that the amount of information we have in PDS games is a little too precise for my liking (I know exactly how much someone likes me in CK2, for example, and exactly what I need to do to get them to leave a faction - and I think the game might be a little more interesting if some of the grey areas that exist in human relationships were grey areas in the game), I think it's less of an issue for HoI than it is for something like CK2, where information was far less readily available. For the tanks/planes/whatever that we'll be using in game, the nations using them did know the stats. Doctrines are a little different, but again they did have people assessing the various effectiveness of different approaches, and I think it's reasonable enough that we know the vast, vast majority of doctrine bonuses (if not all of them).

I suspect diplomatically we'll probably be a little over-informed (ie, Spain likes us exactly by +22, rather than a more realistic "we're liked by them, but not a heap" where there'd be a bit more uncertainty of exactly where on the scale we were). That said, there's even a plus side to this, in that the player never need feel 'cheated' by the game (although I'm sure people will still call foul on dice rolls ).

The flip-side to the stats not being there is that for the stats that can be derived through gameplay (or looked up in game files), it creates a whole lot of busywork for the players that do want to know the stats, and for players that don't want to know the stats, it's easy enough to not pay attention to them.

 

[safe-keeper]

Show the stats, and also show me the consequences of my actions. I love how EU4 doesn't just say, "if you build a marketplace here, it gives you this bonus", but "if you build a marketplace here, it'll give you this bonus, which translates into 1.34 more ducats each month".

 

[Olfert Fischer]

Too many stats - too few stats. We all have different styles of play and expectations. Hard to completely satisfy everyone. Luckily we can choose to use the things, we find useful and ignore the others.

 

[safe-keeper]

EU4 being so "open" about statistics and mechanics can be a bit immersion-breaking at times, but as a new player I love it a lot, and on balance I'll take actually understanding what I'm doing over EU3's approach any day .

Hmm I am not talking about lack of information I am talking about how you get the information. Do I want it spelled out to me in stats or do I want to figure it out myself? Did Hitler have stats when he started trying to take over the world?

Yes.

 

[Sorime]

Fact is games who hide everything are bad because not all of us have the same experience and game develloppers aren't gods or real life soldiers/strategist (as far as the grand strategy games goes). They might think something is logical when in the reality that's not how it would works and people "knowing the truth" (or one of the many truth) would be cheated by an ignorant dev. Showing stats gives all the players the possibility to make the good choices, not just to the ones who have the same mind and experience than the game devs...

And well fact is, in real life battles, there is not that much "hidden" information, pretty much everything is known numbers

 

[safe-keeper]

Dominions has hidden stats, in that spells descriptions will for example just say "this spell creates a big fireball". But Dom also has a manual with a grimoire (spelling?) with the stats of every spell, item, and so on in the game.

Good idea on the surface, and preserves immersion, and I'm not a hardcore player in the first place, so I don't really need to know stats in Dom3, but it wouldn't work for HOI due to all the patches and DLCs which are released all the time. Better to just have the game show you stats itself, since it does calculations anyway and can show you end results of complex interactions, something written documents can't do the same way.

What I wouldn't mind the devs trying is a checkbox you can tick to have the game only give you limited information. For example, not being able to see the exact number for how much other nations like you, only descriptions like "Friendly", "Rival", etc.

Also, if what you really want is uncertainty, a better solution would be to have things be slightly more randomized and uncertain, as has been suggested here before. Ie. instead of a tech taking 80 days to complete, have it take 60-100 or something, with a "bellcurve" range of propability so that most of the time it will take around 80 days, but in some rare cases it'll take far shorter or longer. Would be especially fitting for stats regarding us unpredictable humans. If I send someone a gift, I shouldn't know in advance that it will increase their feelings towards me by exactly 20.

 

[Aries666]

Hmm I am not talking about lack of information I am talking about how you get the information. Do I want it spelled out to me in stats or do I want to figure it out myself? Did Hitler have stats when he started trying to take over the world? No he had to use his gut feelings and help from his advisors. Stats are a rubbish way to portray information. I hate the stats in Paradox games - they just kill any immersion completely. How can you be immersed in a game when all you are looking at is spurious numbers. And half of the time the numbers are plucked out of thin air. For example:

• Fortress Buster: Divisions have +20% Attack when attacking a fort.

I mean who says this is a sensible mechanic. I for one would rather not know it and just know that a commander with this trait is better at taking out fortresses. Why do I need the stat at all?

Well like you said it looks like you are very much in the minority here. There are two big issues with having all these stats but obscuring them from the player. The first is that the AI has access to the stats and can therefore make better decisions (it would have an unfair advantage). The second is that it ultimately leads to trial and error gameplay, which is then confused for enhanced difficulty, the prime example of this are the Dark Souls games, they are easy when you know where the hidden enemies are but you will die regularly learning where they are.

 

[Tarroque]

Adding the possibility of vague or inaccurate information as an additional layer of challenge would be very interesting in my opinion, albeit I also think that it should be an optional thing. It'd also be interesting to include the Washington naval treaty, but again I think the realism mode and the multiplayer modes ought to be separate and optional branches since that way everyone would be satisfied.