• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Gratch11

Colonel
21 Badges
Aug 7, 2009
986
116
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Semper Fi
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
I dont have a problem with modifiers, but I remember playing BICE version of HOI3 and having 5 divisions attacking a Sov HQ unit, fine it was winter, and not having any success in the attack at all. That kind of modifiers are just wrong. A very small unit defending a large area against a superior enemy should not be able to hold of the attack for any length of time.

Same thing of an inf unit with no AT managing to beat of a panzer corps in plains, or even with guns, but with low AT values. Towns or woods are a different story
 
  • 1
Reactions:

_Sky_

Sergeant
1 Badges
Mar 28, 2016
97
130
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
I dont have a problem with modifiers, but I remember playing BICE version of HOI3 and having 5 divisions attacking a Sov HQ unit, fine it was winter, and not having any success in the attack at all. That kind of modifiers are just wrong. A very small unit defending a large area against a superior enemy should not be able to hold of the attack for any length of time.

Same thing of an inf unit with no AT managing to beat of a panzer corps in plains, or even with guns, but with low AT values. Towns or woods are a different story
I understand you sometimes some things just don't make sence.
 

Bap

Uberstacker
34 Badges
Oct 27, 2009
183
312
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
If anything I think HOI3 had too small modifiers for some situations (weather, terrain, entrenchment, etc). I am very enthusiastic that this is being changed. Perhaps I would like to see the entrechment bonus to be increased even further - this was historically a massive factor and without it the game tends to act unrealistic with constant fluid movement and never getting a stable front line (HOI3 was awful in this).
 
  • 1
Reactions:

_Sky_

Sergeant
1 Badges
Mar 28, 2016
97
130
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
If anything I think HOI3 had too small modifiers for some situations (weather, terrain, entrenchment, etc). I am very enthusiastic that this is being changed. Perhaps I would like to see the entrechment bonus to be increased even further - this was historically a massive factor and without it the game tends to act unrealistic with constant fluid movement and never getting a stable front line (HOI3 was awful in this).

I am very hopefull about this whole experience thing, it did not seem to make much of difference in HOI3,,now I hope to see my elite and veteran troops beeing far more usefull than fresh recruts, but all I have seen so far was that ELITE force has about 100% bonus, and no information about does that bouns stack with others.
 

Gort11

Field Marshal
84 Badges
May 22, 2011
4.553
3.765
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
I am very hopefull about this whole experience thing, it did not seem to make much of difference in HOI3,,now I hope to see my elite and veteran troops beeing far more usefull than fresh recruts, but all I have seen so far was that ELITE force has about 100% bonus, and no information about does that bouns stack with others.

It'd be pretty stupid if the bonus didn't stack with others. That'd give you results like green troops being immune to weather penalties because they already get a penalty from their inexperience.

I think based on other Paradox games that we can assume bonuses will stack additively (EG: A unit has a 50% bonus from being veteran, and a 10% penalty for attacking into a forest. They attack at a total bonus of 40%)
 

Number 7

Lt. General
105 Badges
Jun 18, 2012
1.486
3.970
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Lead and Gold
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Penumbra - Black Plague
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Darkest Hour
  • East India Company Collection
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
If anything I think HOI3 had too small modifiers for some situations (weather, terrain, entrenchment, etc). I am very enthusiastic that this is being changed. Perhaps I would like to see the entrechment bonus to be increased even further - this was historically a massive factor and without it the game tends to act unrealistic with constant fluid movement and never getting a stable front line (HOI3 was awful in this).

out of curiosity when did world war 2 have a stable front line that wasn't in movement? i thought that was more world war 1's thing
 

vector1

General
23 Badges
Mar 4, 2012
2.017
513
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Magicka
  • Semper Fi
  • Cities in Motion
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
The real problem in HOI3 is that certain types of modifiers are multiplicative not additive. Within a certain category like CA bonus, it's additive so a 10% bonus from panzer leader stacks with 10% from units for 20%.

However, with other factors like leader skill, experience, weather, fort modifiers it's multiplicative.

So having a say 50% experience bonus, 50% CA bonus, 40% leader bonus for example, stacks into 1.5*1.5*1.4 = 3.15 (315% total modifier). This is quite conservative considering some of the HOI3 mods out there, and even in base HOI3 it's possible to stack up some pretty big bonuses and farm experience once you setup your OOB.

BICE takes this to an extreme, where fort modifiers are completely off the scales since there's a maximum -99% (multiplied by 0.01) for fort modifiers. However the base fort modifier is -23% per level, so a level 10 (-230% = -99%) fort has no difference from a level 5 (-115% = -99%) fort, but forces players to stack up fort bonuses to try to minimize this penalty (typically possible to achieve over 100%). This can lead to the aforementioned weird situations like in winter + mud a single brigade of MIL can hold off an entire panzer corp advancing on plains.

It also leads to weird situations like having a level 10 fort in vanilla HOI3 is literally 10x as effective as having a level 9 fort because -90% and -99% is actually a 1% vs 10% modifier (without other modifiers involved).

So in summary, balancing such huge modifiers that can multiple with other factors could be a little hard because that 50% modifier could snowball with other modifiers (if there are a lot more like HOI3). Linear scaling of bonuses can also sometimes make no sense in reality where the last 10% of effort gives you so much more value than the first 90%.
 

vector1

General
23 Badges
Mar 4, 2012
2.017
513
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Magicka
  • Semper Fi
  • Cities in Motion
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
out of curiosity when did world war 2 have a stable front line that wasn't in movement? i thought that was more world war 1's thing

I'd say a stable frontline is relative. In HOI3 the front is far more fluid than historical operations with movement of hundreds of km occurring regularly within days. In reality supplies along a small bottleneck would never be able to support these operations and the new "supply control" of each state would go a long way into preventing the old exploits of sending in LARM divisions along a single line encirclement to cut off the AI. Now, they ought to run of out supply in a matter of days and stall the advance without infantry supporting the advance into enemy territory via expanding breakthroughs.

Stable frontlines occurred all the time once advances stalled especially in bad weather, and operations that broke though were huge planned operations rather than the old adhoc "throw enough tanks at them" approach in HOI3 to breaking through. German success in the blitzkrieg needed a confluence of factors for success of such magnitude which included terrible mistakes from their opponents. Hopefully the AI can plan better for this, and I'm reasonably sure human players should see such tactics coming and be able to stall better.

One example includes the eastern front once winter hit, after operation typhoon where they got stuck in a series of bloody attacks and counterattacks back and forth. However, you're quite right about WW2 not having fronts as static as WW1 given the increased motorization, mechanization and general up-tempo in operational thinking.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

ArcandSpark

First Lieutenant
30 Badges
Jan 30, 2016
283
291
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
I like the idea of having elite troops that are fairly hard to get and OP. So they would keep their current bonus or it could be increased by 50% as well as have an org boost.

They should be feared and extremely useful.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Bap

Uberstacker
34 Badges
Oct 27, 2009
183
312
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Yes, like vector1 put it, stable fronts occurred all the time. A problem with HOI3 was that you couldn`t take your eyes away for a moment off any sector because everything was constantly moving. This increased the micromanagement tremendously. Imagine it`s 1942 and as germany you`d like to concentrate and make a push in the south. It would be nice not to have to deal with constant movement back and forward in the north and middle sectors. Another example would be the italian front during the Normandy offensive, and so on.
I feel that an added difficulty to breakthrough would bring more meaning to offensives. And an urgency to pressure the enemy to not let them entrench again.
Watching WWW and Da9L`s campaign in China this seems to be happening in HOI4 again. But a reason for it is that neither size seems to have the units to create a continuous front so there are always gaps to exploit. It feels a bit weird - shouldn`t China have many more units particularly if they`re understrengh?
 
Last edited:

Zwirbaum

(Formerly known as Zwireq)
105 Badges
Jun 2, 2011
4.451
2.251
35
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Magicka
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Pride of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • PDXCON 2018 "The Emperor"
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
Yes, like vector1 put it, stable fronts occurred all the time. A problem with HOI3 was that you couldn`t take your eyes away for a moment off any sector because everything was constantly moving. This increased the micromanagement tremendously. Imagine it`s 1942 and as germany you`d like to concentrate and make a push in the south. It would be nice not to have to deal with constant movement back and forward in the north and middle sectors. Another example would be the italian front during the Normandy offensive, and so on.
I feel that an added difficulty to breakthrough would bring more meaning to offensives. And an urgency to pressure the enemy to not let them entrench again.
Watching WWW and Da9L`s campaign in China this seems to be happening in HOI4 again. But a reason for it is that neither size seems to have the units to create a continuous front so there are always gaps to exploit. It feels a bit weird - shouldn`t China have many more units particularly if they`re understrengh?

Supply limits are a thing, so they are limited with how much units they can put on front, and seeing they have little to no equipment...
 

fabius

Field Marshal
65 Badges
Sep 22, 2004
3.222
2.478
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
Two cents: Hell no, not too many modifiers. If it's like Hoi3 3 they all go in to make fairly good, generally plausible combat results.

Regarding veterans. If they want realism, and maybe some gameplay considerations- real decision making:

There is much evidence that Veterans pushed too far became sticky. They took less casualties; but were slower, more cautious in advance.

Perhaps a very high number of combat days after veteran status could give burnt out division modifier. Slower attack speed; less damage in and out. But, I think those divisions still remained tenacious in defence (knowing that routing really screws life chances) so positive defence modifier.