TOO HARD - Rant: I cannot believe that Paradox left "casual" gamers completely behind for no reason

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Hockeystop

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"What is a Casual Gamer" is debatable. We could spend a lot of time gathering evidence and witnesses and still never get to the bottom of it. If you can find the person who invented the term and get a statement from that person that would be the only acceptable way to win this case counselor. :)
 

Quaade

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"What is a Casual Gamer" is debatable. We could spend a lot of time gathering evidence and witnesses and still never get to the bottom of it. If you can find the person who invented the term and get a statement from that person that would be the only acceptable way to win this case counselor. :)

Actually I tried to find some more solid references to it... But other than a reference to it on WoWwikia, the most reference to it are articles on gamespot... While somewhat valid, I won´t hold them to the regard of being... In lack of better word since my brain seemed to stop... Scientists that evolves the language :)

However one must always remember to differentiate game from gamer ;-)

And yes I´m a legal counsel, but winning it could also happen post... If one term catches on over the other... But that doesn´t really solve the issue ATM ;-) waiting for fallout to load though...
 

MCMartel

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Where´s the rudeness? Since then it wasn´t intended... If it´s about arrogance, turning off the tooltips (which I have when I´ve read them 50 times) it´s just pure arrogance if it´s a newbie trying to understand the game, then those tips in the corner does exactly that, if enabled :) you can´t throw away the "manual" before reading it and complain about not understanding the game :) Not meant to be rude, but there are some good tips in the game, I just remembered it now since I´ve disabled them, but as I said, relied heavily on them before :)
The rudeness is you implied I was mentally handicapped because I couldn't understand how some of the concepts worked. And clearly you're not reading my posts because I specifically said I did read the manual, and do to the tutorial, and fyi, I did have tooltips on, none of those three things were particularly useful for a number of core game mechanics.
 

tableandchair

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the real difficulty in eu4 is learning and USING all unclear opaque mechanics, rules and rules of thumb.

I did it by observation, and comparing my observation to eu4 wiki and asking on forum etc.

I still think eu4 needs lot better tutorial, and lot better INGAME tooltips and popup/help system that triggers if this or that would benefit the player in his campaign.

For example.... A popup/pause tutorial window that explains you can CLAIM THRONE of your ally, because they are heirless and they have your dynasty, and what results/options are. Like option a... declare force PU war... Option b... you can get succession war.. option c... you can get pu for free if heirless king dies etc.

I can dream, right?

Eu4 is easy once you grasped all mechanics, but that takes LOAD of ingame experience and studying of wiki pages and forum.

If I would start eu4 as total noob today, I might quit it due to being vague, having crappy tutorial, and depending too much on trial and error.

I had that feeling at start too, but the game peeked my interest in such a manner that I endured.

All in all, make the game less opaque, install better turotial ingame warning system that adapts to player actions, and newcomers would be LOT better off. Because as of now, the learning curve of Eu4 is WAY to steep.

And empire building game shouldn't be trial/error at first because you don't have a clue..

Exactly how I feel. I found the game extremely opaque when starting out but luckily I was already used to reading forums/wiki and stuff to find information thanks to my fgs background which have similarly terrible tutorials.

I also think that the game has quite a few situations where the reason for "losing" isn't clear which leads to frustration for a new player. eg. losing battles even if you might have more troops because of not filling combat width with cannons/tech disparity etc . I don't know how I would fix it though.
 

doktorstick

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I was part of raiding guild in WoW. The word "casual" was often used as a pejorative. Depending on your background, the term "casual gamer" is going to loaded with bias and coming to a consensus on its meaning is ultimately a fruitless endeavor.
 
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Quaade

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The rudeness is you implied I was mentally handicapped because I couldn't understand how some of the concepts worked. And clearly you're not reading my posts because I specifically said I did read the manual, and do to the tutorial, and fyi, I did have tooltips on, none of those three things were particularly useful for a number of core game mechanics.

It´s not unhelpful either, it does a great way of showing the basics and explains the mechanics. I know, because I used it heavily for a long time, but it´s not handholding all the way, which is also kind of the joy about the game, learning and experimenting by trying... You should remember, that the manual and tool-tips are supposed to tell the basics stuff and mechanics and give you some examples of how to use it.

To that end it does quite well, to some extent at least. It´s up to you as a player to learn the specifics of each mechanics, since I for one don´t want to read a long list explaining it and all it´s uses and exploits. I still, to this day use wiki or even ask in forum. Since I logged thousands of hours into EU4, does that mean the infos are crap? No that means that after hours of hours, your still learning. And to read it all, would be annoying...

Besides, if you want that comprehensive manual explaing ALL you should go for the wiki site :) It does great explaining all, it´s exploits, uses, examples and is partly supported by PDX itself which might be the reason why they haven´t updated the manual either (but should perhaps direct players to it instead). The volume of that site is massive, so go ahead and read that it should be helpful, I´ll just find it boring to use time reading manual of stuff that are easily figured out, only for the things I cannot understand, but to each his own :)

I also think that the game has quite a few situations where the reason for "losing" isn't clear which leads to frustration for a new player. eg. losing battles even if you might have more troops because of not filling combat width with cannons/tech disparity etc . I don't know how I would fix it though.

Bit too much handholding really, if a tip came up every time saying "mate, just a few more cannons would do". But I do see you point really to some extent, what could be done about it is to give the information that are shown on the battle screen. So when you win or lose, you can click a button and see what the "stats" are and run them through. so you can see why their morale is much higher than yours.

This I would totally support, since it could have some uses even for the average players :)
 

Sabotage13

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I will just go ahead and leave this here.
By that definition there are more hardcore Bewejeled players than there are hardcore EUIV veterans.
 

Quaade

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By that definition there are more hardcore Bewejeled players than there are hardcore EUIV veterans.

I wouldn´t call myself a hardcore player, nor an average gamer since I have a great understanding to the mechanics and how to use them... Therefore I see myself as a casual gamer
 

Had a dad

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Protip, when Seelmeister says stay ontopic, it's best you do lest you receive a follow up from me.

Post deleted infraction handed out
 

Hockeystop

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Before the thread gets locked for drama, I would just like to go back to my original point. IMHO I do not believe EU4 is a casual game and therefore Paradox has not left anyone behind. I would also like to add that it has been my experience that there is great community here that has been very supportive to myself and other new players. I would recommend anyone having trouble with the game to come here and ask for help rather than complain and vent.
 

Quaade

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Before the thread gets locked for drama, I would just like to go back to my original point. IMHO I do not believe EU4 is a casual game and therefore Paradox has not left anyone behind. I would also like to add that it has been my experience that there is great community here that has been very supportive to myself and other new players. I would recommend anyone having trouble with the game to come here and ask for help rather than complain and vent.

The game could do better explaining itself, but this game is not meant for children. Meaning that a 7-year old would never be able to play this game, even after all tutorials, tooltips and youtubers. Some of the joy is from it's complexity and this should be remembered before raging on the game.

This forum are very helpful, quick to respond and asking here in polite manner will nearly always bring nice replies. The more we advanced users, should remember how hair-pulling frustrating this game can be and hope OP has gotten past this and starts to enjoy it :)
 

MCMartel

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I don't think it should be such that a 7 year old should be able to play it, but I think some of the basic concepts have been poorly explained by tooltips and tutorials, i wish paradox, becuase it clearly cotninues to work on the games with all these DLC's, would update the tutorial so that it's not compltely useless after the first few patches or first DLC.
 

Quaade

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I don't think it should be such that a 7 year old should be able to play it, but I think some of the basic concepts have been poorly explained by tooltips and tutorials, i wish paradox, becuase it clearly cotninues to work on the games with all these DLC's, would update the tutorial so that it's not compltely useless after the first few patches or first DLC.

It was meant to be an exageration :) The manual is crap, I´ll give you that, and the least they could do is navigate you to wiki, which actually is more than a manual. This people usually finds out by google or refered to from here, which isn´t okay :)
 
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MCMartel

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Cause the default for me for any other game is that the wiki is a supplement to go to if there's a random occasional thing you might not get, but you have to go to the wiki to understand even basic combat and trade mechanics, for example, which seems unfair, especially as that is not evident when you get the game.
 

Quaade

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Cause the default for me for any other game is that the wiki is a supplement to go to if there's a random occasional thing you might not get, but you have to go to the wiki to understand even basic combat and trade mechanics, for example, which seems unfair, especially as that is not evident when you get the game.

To be fair, I don´t think any but the few special cases know fully about trade mechanics ;-)
 

Quaade

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There's nothing really hidden about trade mechanics. You could figure it out even from within the game if you really wanted to crunch the numbers.

Yet some numbers doesn´t really add up, and judging from the amount of posts I´ve seen and read to find an answer to which most say this anyway, I´d say that the majority only have a little understanding to it´s actual mechanics
 
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Viperswhip

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It doesn't help when each patch changes the rules, the game is wildly different from where it started, often in subtle but very important ways. The wiki is way out of date on everything. Ah, well, I didn't truly enjoy EU3 until they were finished fiddling with it, let's see where this game ends up.
 
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