(Too?) fast technological progress possible in 1.5.2?

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Herennius

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Just want to hear some opinions, if I'm just playing well here or if maybe some of the new features/changes affecting research broke something...

I play on normal difficulty and started my game as a Moretania (a small tribe in the iberian north). Now after having roughly played 40 years, I noticed that my tech pace accelerated and I hit the 300% ceiling (never achieved that in 100s h of IR before):
ResearchMoretania.jpg

I will soon have reached lvl4 in all techs and lvl5 is only ~4 years away. Even if I take in account that the ahead-of-time penalty will slow future progress and Gold might become the bottleneck to use all the fancy discoveries, my feeling is that I will very likely hit lvl 20 way before the game ends. I'm not necessarily thinking that this is a problem by itself - but I'm a bit surprised that I reached this position without deliberately attempting. I wouldn't call my capital a mega city, for example...
Bravum.jpg

I invested PI in a few trade extra routes (and the trade goods I'm able to import - there is not a lot of choice - partly ended up to be ones which citizens and nobles like - so their happiness is close to 100%) and build three libraries...but I wouln't have expected this to be enough to let my science go to the roof... My capital is the only science hub - I have expanded sucessfully, yes (I'm owning now 36 territories and 210 pops in total), but there are currently no more cities and most of the pops outside my capital are Slaves or Tribesmen. I have integrated no culture so far, instead reduced civil rights of the three biggest conquered ones to Slaves - which leads to a situation that only 17 pops out of said 210 are from my own culture (and therefore counting for research):
CultureDistribution.jpg

My economic strategy relies mainly on mining the sources of precious metals (which are abundant in this area) for export:
Exports.jpg

In case someone wnats to investigate deeper I attached the save I took the pic from.

As said, I'm interested in opinion and a fair and open-minded discussion about if something has went wrong here :)
 

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Alxe

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Disclaimer: I'm not a very knowledgeable Imperator player.

I believe that, while this might be working as designed, it may not be something the devs intended. The tooltip of the Research Efficency is clear enough with regards to Integrated Culture Pops.

1598173392343.png


Your Integrated Culture probably amounts to only Citizens and Nobles, whereas the bulk of your nation is slaves from other cultures. This could be argued that can cause unrest issue as as so is not sustainable, but the amount of unrest may seem negligible compared to the advances on technology.

I had not played Imperator too much before the Menander Update, and I don't recall the tooltip of Research Efficency, but could this have been an oversight while implementing the new Culture system? If so, I worry about their QA. In EU4, for example, you would have a Dev Clash sometimes, which really helps ironing down these issues I guess. Something could be done for Imperator too, but I guess their team is smaller.
 
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Herennius

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Yes, the tooltip clearly states that only 17 pops are counted (and out of those, 7 are Citizen and 4 Noblemen):
ResearchEfficieny.jpg

Unrest, unhappiness or provincial illoyalty are no big issues - the slaves have little political power and what is left I can easily suppress by the rough treatment governor policy (which is BTW very suited to this approach, as demoting speed is increased by a whopping 100%!) and using my standing army of 8 or 9 cohorts as garrison force in peace times:
MorecaniaLoyaltyHappiness.jpg
 
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Alxe

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That seals it, I think. Good discovery! I think this is a big oversight in the system.

As Slaves are always considered to be 100% happiness for Output calculation, even with a very unhappy pops you won't have any kind of revolt.
I understand that Upper Class (Characters) unloyalty yields Civil Wars, and Lower Class (Pops) unloyalty yields Province Unrest, but the latter seems easily handled.

I believe some kind of approach to this would be to consider, at least, a 33% of the Population of Unintegrated for calculating Research Efficiency.
For unrest, I would argue some kind of Slave Insurrection or something should also be taken into account, even if their Output is always calculated as 100%
 

Rabid

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Yes, there should probably be some impact from non integrated pops to research speed. Like let's say maybe they count as 30% of a pop per unit for the sake of calculating how fast the overall research rate is. It does feel a bit too easy to get to 300% now.
 
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Todie

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I like the direction of the change to the research efficiency formula, but some kind of base value in the formula would be good,
Be it based completely on number of total non-integrated pops, or a mix of that and a constant or something.
 

curtadams

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Isn't your manpower really low? I suppose you could run off mercenary armies.

In addition to the excessive research speed, it seems off that a country overwhelmingly composed of out-of-culture out-of-religion slaves could have minimal unrest issues.

From a sim point of view, you could call this the "medieval solution": a large population of serfs (=slaves) ruled over by a small nobility, with a small free population. That didn't produce great research.

Edit: actually a better analogy is the "Spartan solution": a small group of one culture ruling over a much larger group of slaves from another culture, held there by being denied citizenship rights. Which obviously was a workable solution in spite of moral issues, but they were poor at innovation and unrest was a perpetual problem.
 
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Herennius

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Isn't your manpower really low? I suppose you could run off mercenary armies.

In addition to the excessive research speed, it seems off that a country overwhelmingly composed of out-of-culture out-of-religion slaves could have minimal unrest issues.

From a sim point of view, you could call this the "medieval solution": a large population of serfs (=slaves) ruled over by a small nobility, with a small free population. That didn't produce great research.

Edit: actually a better analogy is the "Spartan solution": a small group of one culture ruling over a much larger group of slaves from another culture, held there by being denied citizenship rights. Which obviously was a workable solution in spite of moral issues, but they were poor at innovation and unrest was a perpetual problem.

Indeed, manpower is an issue - I was lucky in the first few wars, in which my allies suffered most casualties, while I cleverly mainly sieged with my only 8k army lead by my high MA leader. But at some point the luck left me and I lost that army. Now my manpower is close to zero and currently I don't even have enough garrison forces. So I will have to rely on mercs for the moment - and either the next culture I conquer or one of the 3 enslaved will have to get a higher civil rights (the default Freemen or eventually Tribesmen would work as well). I'm curious how this will end, when one day Carthage knocks on my doors (they slowly, but steadily occupy more and more of Iberia)...

So for manpower there is indeed a balancing factor and a nice trade-off, if you go all-slave. The research thing though is unaffected by the decision what pop type you allow the unintegrated cultures.
 
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Less2

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This definitely looks to be an unintented implication of the research system as it stands. It means that the assimilation vs. integration debate can be settled to be "neither, instead keep 90% of your pops unaccepted and institute a police state/stack unaccepted happiness modifiers".

Though it should be noted that getting 150-200% research efficiency with full assimilation is quite easy, and due to how tech works with ahead of time being a divisor to research progress you'll not get too much further ahead by utilizing this to get 300% research efficiency. So whilst likely unintended it isn't too overpowered IMO. There are obvious downsides for freemen happiness/production along with unrest.
 
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Jays298

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It is fast. Too fast. I tend to be 100 years ahead by mid game.

But the old system was slow, too slow. I tended to be 100 years behind.

And it think it is now a good system.

I hope they slow it down a little. That would make inventions more meaningful.
 
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BarbarianHunter

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It is fast. Too fast. I tend to be 100 years ahead by mid game.

But the old system was slow, too slow. I tended to be 100 years behind.

And it think it is now a good system.

I hope they slow it down a little. That would make inventions more meaningful.
It is fast (I agree with your assessment & like it as well).

I slow it down manually by choosing "Harsh Taxation" tax policy for -20% research points and +12% slave output. Takes the edge off having a high research rate.
 
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maxk94

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The problem is that research rate is now depended from the ratio to only integrated cultures and not all pops - so you decrease techspeed when integrate big cultures without many nobles/citizen.

I think it should be dependent from ratio to all inhabitants again.
 
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Marcus Pica

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The problem is that research rate is now depended from the ratio to only integrated cultures and not all pops - so you decrease techspeed when integrate big cultures without many nobles/citizen.

I think it should be dependent from ratio to all inhabitants again.
That makes integration consideration important, which I like. Playing as Adriatic Veneti I integrated the Etruscan culture as theirir ratio of citizens was high while I decided not to integrate the more numerous Lepontic cultures as they are tribals and I only gave them some rights in the cultural decisions. I imagine something like that happening in history so it is realistic.

Though the OP shows this is exploitable and I think that cultural revolts and slave revolts should bring his Herrenius' culture to the knees. So further balancing is required
 
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Herennius

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Isn't your manpower really low? I suppose you could run off mercenary armies.

So I found out that hiring mercenaries is just one way to play around that...

My proud Morecanian Democracy remembered their barbarian (military) traditions and just levied whats needed :)

RaiseLevies.jpg


RaiseLevies2.jpg

IIRC, I used that ability once back in the day of monarch points, found it "ok" and than forget about it. I'm always hesistant to call something "overpowered" and to summon the nerf bats, but 2 Tyranny and some unrest is a very sweet deal for getting 10-12k LI/LC/HA (depending on ressources access) for a fully owned province without having to spend any manpower, gold and recruitment time. You need to wait 5 years before you can repeat in the same province, but I doubt that this will be really necessary, as nothing stops you from doing it immediately in freshly conquered provinces. Even the restriction to certain unit types is no big problem, if you just plan ahead and use your own manpower for the complementary forces like HI. Aside from barbarian tribes, nations with Persians MT can use it as well. At least you need adopt a minium of 4 MT before you can do it, which at least prevents you from using it early game.

EDIT: And you can (ab)use the raised levies even to fill your manpower reserve, as nothing stops you from instantly detaching them from the army which raised them, to disband them for a tiny gold sum and get 25% of the raised troops as manpower back in the pool:
GeneratingManpower.jpg
 
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Todie

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Yeah, raise levies was pretty good in 1.4 already, but at least then there was some concern for economic impact of unrest.

in 1.5 there is practically no such economic impact from unrest, unless it ends up causing a rebellion.
 
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