Too easy to keep Free Investiture?

[Galaahd]

Sorry if I keep on talking about this, but it is a major flaw in the game in my opinion (which is still great, mind you). I think that it is extremely easy to keep Free Investiture.

The event is pretty much rare, and you can refuse him for just a minor malus in the relationship (-20), a small loss of piety (-25) and 2 % loss in religion's moral authority. With the right condition, you can even refuse him and gain a small amount of piety!

Come on, the relation hit should be much more severe, as the piety loss should. And where is the threat of excommunication? You'd just have to send your chancellor and your bishop to Rome and voilà, good relation with the pope once again!

That's hardly the way to represent the most important political conflict at a european level for almost three centuries.

 

[Geekrulez]

Doing this and you cant get invasion cb because of opinion.

 

[Galaahd]

Doing this and you cant get invasion cb because of opinion.

I have Free Investiture and 100 relation with the Pope just by having my chancellor and my lord spiritual at Rome.

 

[0Emmanuel]

I have Free Investiture and 100 relation with the Pope just by having my chancellor and my lord spiritual at Rome.

Well, then it's balanced out by the fact that you can't use those two for anything else. Also, every new pope starts without the positive modifiers from your two councilmen. And from experience I can say, just one day with negative opinion and that one guy you crossed 50 years ago will have you excommunicated. Better go all out and install an antipope.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

The problem is that you can easily abuse the court champlain to improve relations with the pope. The event will trigger over and over again, so most of the time you will have +100 relations, despite free investure or bad traits.
:<

 

[raw]

it's pretty easy to increase opinion overall, not just with the pope. i seriously wonder how people run into succession crises so often.

 

[Minchandre]

I mean, technically everyone should have Free Investiture before 1075, any it was basically the norm throughout most of Europe until the Concordat of Worms in 1122 anyway. Henry I of England managed to oppose the Pope in this matter without even getting excommunicated for his trouble

 

[Fjoelsvider]

what is it with people whining about something being too easy when they havent even finished a game to the end and compared with another playthrough...

you have no basis for oyur statement. good for you that your court chaplain is capable. i had games where he ruined relations 5 times in a row.

i had games where i got excomm. because the pope didnt quite like me enough to avoid it (without free investiture i wouldnt have been excommed).

and if you think its too easy just dont do it!? its not like the ai abuses it, so the only one to blame for abuse is you.

but no everyone things he has to show how awesome he is and proclaim everythign to be too easy and the result is we get more annoying peasents, mechanics ruining strategic marriages, and next will be fucked up religious system as well, because it was too easy, and the solution is to make it more annoying


sorry for rumbling, i didnt mean to be mean. im just annoyed as you can tell. id just liek to ask you to compare with other circumstances in the game. and if you still feel its to easy okay then go ahead and say so... but most people dont. they play 80 years, have an easy time with something and come here complaining its too easy.
how many do you think tried the same when staritng as a count in the hre, or increasing game difficulty settings? i dont think many did ;/

 

[Galaahd]

It's not just about the difficulty, it's about realistical outcomes, and representing what happened historically. As I've pointed out in other threads, the pope should act to counter and balance the power of the Holy Roman Emperor, but he doesn't. He never does it, he's just happy to rule his two counties and to get income from bishoprics. No investiture conflict, no power struggle between the emperor and the pope, no guelphs and ghibellines, nothing.

I mean, technically everyone should have Free Investiture before 1075, any it was basically the norm throughout most of Europe until the Concordat of Worms in 1122 anyway. Henry I of England managed to oppose the Pope in this matter without even getting excommunicated for his trouble

True, but my thread is mainly about the HRE and how the game should represent its internal conflicts.

 

[raw]

what is it with people whining about something being too easy when they havent even finished a game to the end and compared with another playthrough...

Why do you assume the people "whining about something being too easy" haven't "even finished a game"?

 

[Fjoelsvider]

because no one ever said "i had this happen to me with my england, leon, count of aargau, duke of thrake games"...

if, and thats a big if, anyone ever supplies screenshots i havent seen a single one after 1300 in this context.

and admitedly i assume it in many cases, because if they had played several different scenarios they would have noticed that things can turn out quite differently...

but your right its an assumption. and i already tried to apologize for being impolite, bad mood i guess
but i dont intend to edit it out, cause the reasons for my annoyance still stand, even though the op might turn out to be not one of them

 

[Maleficus]

It's not just about the difficulty, it's about realistical outcomes, and representing what happened historically. As I've pointed out in other threads, the pope should act to counter and balance the power of the Holy Roman Emperor, but he doesn't. He never does it, he's just happy to rule his two counties and to get income from bishoprics. No investiture conflict, no power struggle between the emperor and the pope, no guelphs and ghibellines, nothing.

Granted, historically speaking the pope could be a real argumentative sod. Also historically speaking he didn't excommunicate the same person 5 times in a year on the whim of the duke of Freezing-your-tits-off-in-Trondelag or whatever. Basically, the pope needs quite a bit of work doing all round for the next patch, because as things stand I really can't see any good reason not to have an anti-pope, and that really shouldn't be the case or else every country in Europe would've had one

 

[raw]

because no one ever said "i had this happen to me with my england, leon, count of aargau, duke of thrake games"...

In no game I played I had issues with keeping free investiture. I remember being excommunicated for a short time in a few games and only once I got an excommunication DoW. But that was just the opportunistic AI kicking in, as I was fighting two other wars at the same time already. Funnily enough, in that game I allowed papal investiture.

Let's have a look at how the competition handles excommunications:

In the game Medieval 2: Total War, Catholic factions may be threatened by excommunication by the Pope - the head of the Catholic faith. This will come about principally by waging war against other (non-excommunicated) catholic factions. The Pope will usually give the player warning of imminent excommunication, thus providing an opportunity to avoid it. However, it may not always be in the players best interests to obey the Pope since giving in to his demands - usually by ceasing hostilities with a particular Catholic faction - may rob the player of his initiative and ultimately waste a great deal of resources that have already been committed to a war.
Regardless, should a player become excommunicated for whatever reason, his popularity in friendly Catholic settlements with suffer as a result until reconciliation occurs and certain family members are likely to pick up "dislikes catholic" traits. If you ignore the reason you were excommunicated your faction leader will develop the "excommunicated? HA!" trait which cancels out all negative effects of the "excommunicated" trait.
Also all settlements will receive up to a 20% public order penalty while excommunicated. The size of this penalty decreases as the level of Catholicism in the settlement decreases. This effectively acts as a partial disincentive to keep religious levels high because some of the penalty associated with religious unrest will be offset by a reduction in the excommunication penalty.

So, in TW:ME2 we have
* massive loss of opinion amongst all catholics
* 20% public order penality (wich would probably translate best as increased revoltrisk + lowered tax income in PI games)
* you also gain a trait for being excommunicated
* a nice mechanic to keep both religious levels high (so you do not want to be excommunicated) and excommunication itself having severe penalties (so you suffer greatly if excommunicated)

in CK2 we have:
* the pope doesn't like you
* other catholics get a free casus belli on you

In CK1 excommunicated persons could not inherit, I don't think we have that in CK2.

quite honestly, i never care about what the pope says or likes. considering he is one of the most influential people of the 11. and 12. century that's kinda lame.

 

[Fjoelsvider]

i agree that excomm could be stronger. i dont think keeping free investiture is "too easy". it should have _meaningful_ consequences though.

iirc in tw game "peasent revolts" made provinces independent if not dealt with right? and they did pack quite a punch and moved around the map too.
our peasents are just useless doorstoppers...

soem events and effects on other rulers would be cool though

 

[raw]

iirc in tw game "peasent revolts" made provinces independent if not dealt with right?

iirc revolting provinces could defect in CK1 aswell, i am not so sure about CK2.
the difference between the "peasant revolts" of TW are that those aren't peasant revolts (peasant revolts didn't matter in the medieval, they were just butchered) but rather barons and mighty burghers etc..

you needed at least some real weapons to even think about a revolt. the revolts in CK2 are complete bogus.