ToH2: The Olympian Rebirth - Discussion Thread

[smn_]

Well, that I can't conjure op 100,000 phrygians or a direct decision is fine, and what I expected too. However, I do NOT know where the fine line is [when it was just "an eastern country", I was fine with it, but specifying a country, is, imo, just across the line.. but apparently my opinion on the matter is not the GM's opinion, so I'd like to know where the line is exactly ]

Strictly OOC comment, for I don't think I crossed the line:
1) The soldier might not be telling the truth. In fact, there are some statements supporting this view: "Most likely he was only trying to make himself important, and making up stories." (casting some doubt over it), "You see Gaul had been fighting with Troy for ages " (a clear lie/overstatement, Gaul never really fought Troy). Even if he wasn't lying, he might have been colouring up the story.
2) Even if he spoke the truth, 3 valid possibilities come up:
i) Phoenicia was framed
ii) The assassin acted without Orions knowledge or approval
iii) Orion approved the action

So, all things considered, it is higly likely that Orion never had anything to do with it. But there is always the doubt...

 

[smn_]

Do not believe the stories of the drunk soldier, who is a puppet of the capitalist imperialists! Orion has never ordered or sanctioned the use of Assasins against his good friend Hector, nor against anyone else, for that matter. An investigation as to the source of this despicable rumour is being carried out as we speak.

Brilliant! :rofl:

 

[Avernite]

Odds are Midas did it, offcourse. He has undoubtedly ample supply of Phoenician stuff (robbed during his attacks), and he undoubtedly would want Hector and Orion to fight.

It is such a shame for him that the story gets out just when they are allied :rofl:

 

[Wyvern]

A few of you can now cast higher level spells ... bugger, I've got to come up with a bunch of new spells now

Hmm, ok well this list isn't fully complete yet but here you go with a taster for the 4th and 5th level spells. They may change a bit over the next few days (though probably not by much) and will be finalised by end of next Monday evening.

4th Level Spells

• Submit to my will (Effect: Make one DP slider change excludes narrowminded slider) Zeus
• Make HIM submit to my will (Effect: Make one DP slider change to another country) Hera
• Gold Mine (Effect: Dionysus changes one of your provinces into a GoldMine! +30 Mine value) Dionysus
• Avert Death (Effect: No XP lost if killed, only items) Hades
• Poseidens Monster (Effect: Summon a Kraken to ride before your fleet 4/4/4 Admiral) Poseiden
• Apollo’s anger (Effect: Target Apollo’s anger upon a fellow hero – Apollo random event works as per Artemis/Hera events) Apollo
• Weapons of War (Effect: Hephaestus builds some siege weapons for you - +1 to siege bonus) Hephaestus
• Weapons Training (Effect: Ares comes down and drills your troops personally - +1000 Land) Ares
• Population Migration (Effect: The population from a neighbouring province migrate due to the beauty of the Goddess who lures them there – upto 20,000 people move from one province to another bordering province, though will never drop below 5k. They also bring some of their goods = +300d from target owners treasury to yours) Artemis/Aphrodite
• A Thief in the Night (Effect: Hermes steals from the rich and gives to the poor – ie you! Gold upto the value of 600d is stolen from another Hero and given to you, though the target gains a CB for such effrontery) Hermes
• I want Justice! (Effect: You have been wronged and go before Athena for Justice. She grants you a CB for the next 30 years on your enemy) Athena

5th Level Spells

• Healing Hand of Apollo (Effect: Apollo stands ready to heal even the most grievious wound, saving you from death. No xp or items are lost if you’re killed and xp is gained as normal – you didn’ die!) Apollo
• Summon greater hero (Effect: Summon a great Hero of past ages to help you for one session 5/5/5/2) Zeus
• War Fleet (Effect: Poseiden brings up from the depths an fleet of ancient ships. It costs you 500d to make repairs – loan added if required – but you gain 50 warships) Poseiden
• Scepter of Might (Effect: Hephaestus forges a mighty Scepter for you increasing your hold over your people - +1 to each of ADM/MIL/DIP) Hephaestus
• Enriched Mine (Effect: Dionysus increases the Gold content of your Mine - +30 to an existing Mine, not one created this turn) Dionysus
• Hera’s Fire (Effect: Rumours reach Hera that Zeus is being unfaithful. She sends down a ball of fire at the location where he is dallying which happens to be one of his Temples, sadly burning the edifice to the ground. Random temple of Zeus permanently destroyed) Hera
• Rule of Law (Effect: Makes 3 of your provinces CORES – must target provinces bordering other cores first) Athena
• Finger of death (Effect: The cold finger of Hades touches an enemy Hero, reducing one of his stats by 1 (can be any stats, monarch or leader you choose – cannot go below base levels) Hades
• Make Love not War (Effect: Aphrodite goes to town and in their excitement the local males tear down the city walls to get a better view of the Goddess – Fortress reduced to level 1 in target province) Aphrodite
• Hermes spell pending
• Artemis spell pending

 

[unmerged(18425)]

Four heroes.

Against three. (Autolycus, Theseus and Heracles).

Ha, Midas thinks he has it tough. He should've tried Autolycos' punishment

I might not be aware of the all details of Autolycos' punishment, but this doesn't seem true to me.

 

[smn_]

Wow - some _great_ spells there. And looks like Theseus needs to build one more temple next session, and dedicate it to Apollo, for he is scheduled to die again:

Healing Hand of Apollo (Effect: Apollo stands ready to heal even the most grievious wound, saving you from death. No xp or items are lost if you’re killed and xp is gained as normal – you didn’ die!) Apollo

 

[unmerged(18425)]

Great spells!

I like the level five spells. Some are really powerful.

[*]Scepter of Might (Effect: Hephaestus forges a mighty Scepter for you increasing your hold over your people - +1 to each of ADM/MIL/DIP) Hephaestus

This one seems rather weak to me though

 

[Wyvern]

Great spells!

This one seems rather weak to me though

Well Hephaestus' spells only have to be cast once (assuming you don't die) so can last a lot longer than a single session. As it is taking nothing but research into consideration this spell will net you around +1400d to your tech levels. Perhaps not the greatest for a single session, but live a long life and it's well worth casting....

 

[smn_]

This one seems rather weak to me though

Unless it stacks with the level 1 items - This would mean that in an average 25 year session, it equals to 1200 (12*4*25) ducats of extra tech investment. And in the subsequent sessions, the investment is free.

 

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

I want Justice! (Effect: You have been wronged and go before Athena for Justice. She grants you a CB for the next 30 years on your enemy) Athena

Badboy is next to impossible to acquire, in signifigant quantites, in ToH 2- negating that beneficial aspect of having a CB. Additionally, nations in ToH 2 are both small AND narrowminded- meaning that stab costs are extremely low. Added to this is that anyone wishing to cast this blessing will have to have 7 temples... making it even easier to regain any stab lost in a CB-less Dow.

Rule of Law (Effect: Makes 3 of your provinces CORES – must target provinces bordering other cores first) Athena

Same as above. Stability is cheap and BB is hard to acumulate- there is no reason to cast the spell.

In other words, you are getting a VERY small return on the HUGE investment you made when you built (and will probably spend rebuilding) the temples. These blessings pale in comparision to the value of the blessings of the other Gods.

 

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

For a brief while there, I was fighting Leonidas, Hector, Midas, and Odysseus. Fortunately, my Grandson Odysseus was merely making a point (I had been rather nasty to him in that old affair in Brittain, which ended so badly [Due to GM intercession. Ha, Midas thinks he has it tough. He should've tried Autolycos' punishment]) and withdrew after doing some damage and being paid 250d.

Alas Autolycos seems to have completely misunderstood the reason underlying the friendly visit that Odysseus paid him. Odysseus was not there to wage war, why the very suggestion of such is preposterous! Rather, he was simply there to remind Autolycos that it was time to pay the repairations, for the said "affair in Brittain", that he no doubt meant to pay his grandson, but had innocently forgotten about, during the last 90 years.

He surely must have forgotten, for what other explaination could there possibly be? Odysseus does know his grandfather afterall, and he is quite sure the Autolycos is not a tricky, crafty, conspiring, dishonest, conniving, deceitful, calculating, devious, treacherous, intriguing, scheming, sly, and unscrupulous bastard; it is simply beyond imagination the he would rob his own grandson of a single copper- even if he were as rich as Midas! He most certainly would not resort to mugging his grandson, like a common thug, when he was poor, bankrupt, destitute, diplomatically isolated, bereft of hope, and desperately grasping at any opportunity, no matter how faint, that he saw- not even if the gain was the unimaginable wealth of the minotaurs and central "Brittain", their knowledge of vast streches of fertile virgin territory, and an artifact blessed by the gods themselves!

With that said, Autolycos is, of course, free to take however long he needs to scrounge up the rest of the money he no doubt innocently forget to send- even if it takes another 90 years. Afterall, it's not as if Odysseus is some sort of impatient loose-cannon with horrible temper who inflicts a horribly violent vengence upon those who have wronged him. Nope- peace loving Odysseus- thats me! Why just ask Hector, or Hercules, or Media, or the decapitated and mutilated remains of the the suitors of my deceased wife if you don't believe me!

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Same as above. Stability is cheap and BB is hard to acumulate- there is no reason to cast the spell.

Cores are nice. Lower RR in wartime from war exhaustion and higher recruitment capability. I can think of a few provinces I would love to make cores.

Alas Autolycos seems to have completely misunderstood the reason underlying the friendly visit that Odysseus paid him. Odysseus was not there to wage war, why the very suggestion of such is preposterous! Rather, he was simply there to remind Autolycos that it was time to pay the repairations, for the said "affair in Brittain", that he no doubt meant to pay his grandson, but had innocently forgotten about, during the last 90 years.

Ah, the reparations, Autolycos regrets the misunderstanding. Well, what with time, the mass minting of silver coin, and adjusting for the hedonic inflator, the reparations have reached a value in 1590 terms of 238d including interest. As such, Autolycos appears to have paid 12d too much, but, greathearted as he is, he is not going to insist on them being repaid. Consider them pocket money.

 

[smn_]

Because I seem to lack better things to do, and to spark up some discussion, here is some analysis on the new spells, ranked from one to five stars.



[*]Submit to my will (Effect: Make one DP slider change excludes narrowminded slider) Zeus

***
I can not decide of the usefulness of this spell.. It is a nice one but definitely not the most important.



[*]Make HIM submit to my will (Effect: Make one DP slider change to another country) Hera

****
This spell has huge offensive potential, especially when ganging against the top power. Becoming suddenly a defensive naval nation can really ruin ones fighting capability.



[*]Gold Mine (Effect: Dionysus changes one of your provinces into a GoldMine! +30 Mine value) Dionysus

***
+2.5 ducats monthly income. There seems to be better investments, but this is ok too.



[*]Avert Death (Effect: No XP lost if killed, only items) Hades

****
Something Theseus finds really useful



[*]Poseidens Monster (Effect: Summon a Kraken to ride before your fleet 4/4/4 Admiral) Poseiden

****
Could be the key into dominating the seas.



[*]Apollo’s anger (Effect: Target Apollo’s anger upon a fellow hero – Apollo random event works as per Artemis/Hera events) Apollo

*
Unless the effects are significantly stronger than the Artemis one, this spell seems to be a total waste.



[*]Weapons of War (Effect: Hephaestus builds some siege weapons for you - +1 to siege bonus) Hephaestus

**
Mildly interesting but maybe not terribly useful, because I can't see the main hero being used too much to siege unless the war is already won. Can this weaponry be allocated to summoned lesser generals?



[*]Weapons Training (Effect: Ares comes down and drills your troops personally - +1000 Land) Ares

**
An ok boost, could maybe be a little higher to be worth it?



[*]Population Migration (Effect: The population from a neighbouring province migrate due to the beauty of the Goddess who lures them there – upto 20,000 people move from one province to another bordering province, though will never drop below 5k. They also bring some of their goods = +300d from target owners treasury to yours) Artemis/Aphrodite

**(***)
Evil, but only if one does happen to have populous neighbouring provinces. For example my Gerona could easily get some inhabitants from Catalonia



[*]A Thief in the Night (Effect: Hermes steals from the rich and gives to the poor – ie you! Gold upto the value of 600d is stolen from another Hero and given to you, though the target gains a CB for such effrontery) Hermes

****
Has good potential when planning to start the session with a war against a neighbour. And something for Midas to get his 600 back from Orion



[*]I want Justice! (Effect: You have been wronged and go before Athena for Justice. She grants you a CB for the next 30 years on your enemy) Athena


*
I agree with BTG that this is a weak spell. Maybe if boosted with some poritive random events with the trigger being war with the target, it would be worth it.



5th Level Spells

[*]Healing Hand of Apollo (Effect: Apollo stands ready to heal even the most grievious wound, saving you from death. No xp or items are lost if you’re killed and xp is gained as normal – you didn’ die!) Apollo

*****
Exactly what Theseus needs



[*]Summon greater hero (Effect: Summon a great Hero of past ages to help you for one session 5/5/5/2) Zeus

****
This is very powerful, too. That it is only for one session does not really matter, for the stats are higher than Theseus for example has at the moment



[*]War Fleet (Effect: Poseiden brings up from the depths an fleet of ancient ships. It costs you 500d to make repairs – loan added if required – but you gain 50 warships) Poseiden

*****
I really want to get 5th level spells and cast this.



[*]Scepter of Might (Effect: Hephaestus forges a mighty Scepter for you increasing your hold over your people - +1 to each of ADM/MIL/DIP) Hephaestus

* or ***
Depends solely if this bonus stacks with the 1st level item bonuses or not.



[*]Enriched Mine (Effect: Dionysus increases the Gold content of your Mine - +30 to an existing Mine, not one created this turn) Dionysus

**
Sort of weak, compared to some of the other spells, but I can imagine Midas going for this anyway



[*]Hera’s Fire (Effect: Rumours reach Hera that Zeus is being unfaithful. She sends down a ball of fire at the location where he is dallying which happens to be one of his Temples, sadly burning the edifice to the ground. Random temple of Zeus permanently destroyed) Hera

**
Could be 3 stars, but I'm dedicating a temple to Zeus



[*]Rule of Law (Effect: Makes 3 of your provinces CORES – must target provinces bordering other cores first) Athena

****
Cores are cores are cores.



[*]Finger of death (Effect: The cold finger of Hades touches an enemy Hero, reducing one of his stats by 1 (can be any stats, monarch or leader you choose – cannot go below base levels) Hades

****
Relatively useful spell, especially when taking on those heroes that have lived forever.



[*]Make Love not War (Effect: Aphrodite goes to town and in their excitement the local males tear down the city walls to get a better view of the Goddess – Fortress reduced to level 1 in target province) Aphrodite

***
All in all, a good spell but I can't see it being used very often because some of the other spells are even better.

[*]Hermes spell pending
[*]Artemis spell pending

 

[ForzaA]

A Thief in the Night (Effect: Hermes steals from the rich and gives to the poor – ie you! Gold upto the value of 600d is stolen from another Hero and given to you, though the target gains a CB for such effrontery) Hermes

****
Has good potential when planning to start the session with a war against a neighbour. And something for Midas to get his 600 back from Orion

Actually, Orion is down 350 ducats vis-a-vis Midas

 

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

Ah, the reparations, Autolycos regrets the misunderstanding. Well, what with time, the mass minting of silver coin, and adjusting for the hedonic inflator, the reparations have reached a value in 1590 terms of 238d including interest. As such, Autolycos appears to have paid 12d too much, but, greathearted as he is, he is not going to insist on them being repaid. Consider them pocket money.

Upon closer inspection it seems that the calculations of Autolycos are off- not only by the 12d- but by an order of magnitude as well. No doubt another innocent mistake due completely to absentmindedness. According to Odysseus's book-keeping, which have things such as the free 20 year trip to Hades that his grandfather sent him on factored it (which I appreciated ever so much- let me tell you), it seems that Autolycos needs to make another 9 payments of 250d to completly repay the debt. Odysseus does, of course, appreciate how much money this is and is willing, since Autolycos is family, to discuss (via PM and/or ICQ) how the debt may be repaid with a substancially lower finicial cost to Autolycos.

 

[Swuul]

OOC: If somebody thinks Leonidas accept the bended truth presented by Autolycos (and cheered by the liar Pelops), he doesn't. I still have diarrhea and been vomitting, and now I have fever too Time to see the doctor, I presume...

 

[unmerged(18425)]

Actually, Orion is down 350 ducats vis-a-vis Midas

Not true. You stole 600 ducats from me. I never invaded you to demand money in a war.

 

[ForzaA]

Not true. You stole 600 ducats from me. I never invaded you to demand money in a war.

Neither did I, I only sent an escort for the caravans that Midas was just about to send to Phoenicia

 

[Wyvern]

Because I seem to lack better things to do, and to spark up some discussion, here is some analysis on the new spells, ranked from one to five stars.



[*]Submit to my will (Effect: Make one DP slider change excludes narrowminded slider) Zeus

***
I can not decide of the usefulness of this spell.. It is a nice one but definitely not the most important.



[*]Make HIM submit to my will (Effect: Make one DP slider change to another country) Hera

****
This spell has huge offensive potential, especially when ganging against the top power. Becoming suddenly a defensive naval nation can really ruin ones fighting capability.

Yes, might be too powerful for a 4th level spell. Still considering this one.

Apollo’s anger (Effect: Target Apollo’s anger upon a fellow hero – Apollo random event works as per Artemis/Hera events) Apollo

*
Unless the effects are significantly stronger than the Artemis one, this spell seems to be a total waste.

They will be stronger, and I may tweak the Artemis one too as it is pretty feeble (despite Peter claiming to me at one point that it was overpowered ).

[*]Weapons of War (Effect: Hephaestus builds some siege weapons for you - +1 to siege bonus) Hephaestus

**
Mildly interesting but maybe not terribly useful, because I can't see the main hero being used too much to siege unless the war is already won. Can this weaponry be allocated to summoned lesser generals?

I can see it being used later in the game to bring down those mighty fortresses before land 51.

[*]Weapons Training (Effect: Ares comes down and drills your troops personally - +1000 Land) Ares

**
An ok boost, could maybe be a little higher to be worth it?

Agreed - needs boosting a little more.

I want Justice! (Effect: You have been wronged and go before Athena for Justice. She grants you a CB for the next 30 years on your enemy) Athena

*
I agree with BTG that this is a weak spell. Maybe if boosted with some poritive random events with the trigger being war with the target, it would be worth it.

Well I understand some spells will be used more than others, but this could be useful later on and especially if your stab costs are high. It's also a nice RP prayer.

5th Level Spells

[*]Healing Hand of Apollo (Effect: Apollo stands ready to heal even the most grievious wound, saving you from death. No xp or items are lost if you’re killed and xp is gained as normal – you didn’ die!) Apollo

*****
Exactly what Theseus needs

Yes I like this one too

Scepter of Might (Effect: Hephaestus forges a mighty Scepter for you increasing your hold over your people - +1 to each of ADM/MIL/DIP) Hephaestus

* or ***
Depends solely if this bonus stacks with the 1st level item bonuses or not.

Yes it stacks with his other items.

Thanks for the comments.

 

[Wyvern]

The spells have undergone a bit of modification. The full document has been updated on my ftp site - link updated in first post. Note there is a new temple progression table:

No. of Temples         L1   L2   L3   L4   L5   L6   L7
 
    1                   1 
    2                   2 
    3                   2    1 
    4                   3    2 
    5                   3    2    1 
    6                   3    3    1 
    7                   4    3    1    1
    8                   4    3    2    1
    9                   4    4    2    1
   10                   4    4    2    2
   11                   4    4    2    2    1
   12                   4    4    3    2    1
   13                   4    4    3    3    1
   14                   4    4    3    3    2
   15                   4    4    3    3    2    1
   16                   4    4    4    3    2    1
   17                   4    4    4    4    2    1
   18                   4    4    4    4    3    1
   19                   4    4    4    4    3    2
   20                   4    4    4    4    3    2    1

4th and 5th level spells are now:

4th Level Spells
All level 4 spells require you to have 2 temples of the God or Goddess to cast. If you only have 1 temple then you can offset the missing temple at a piety cost of 2 VP per casting

• Submit to my will (Effect: Make one DP slider change excludes narrowminded slider) Zeus
• Make HIM submit to my will (Effect: Make one DP slider change to another country) Hera
• Gold Mine (Effect: Dionysus changes one of your provinces into a GoldMine! +30 Mine value) Dionysus
• Avert Death (Effect: No XP lost if killed, only items) Hades
• Poseidens Monster (Effect: Summon a Kraken to ride before your fleet 4/4/4 Admiral) Poseiden
• Apollo’s anger (Effect: Target Apollo’s anger upon a fellow hero – Apollo random event works as per Artemis/Hera events) Apollo
• Weapons of War (Effect: Hephaestus builds some siege weapons for you - +1 to siege bonus) Hephaestus
• Weapons Training (Effect: Ares comes down and drills your troops personally - +2000 Land) Ares
• Population Migration (Effect: The population from a neighbouring province migrate due to the beauty of the Goddess who lures them there – upto 20,000 people move from one province to another bordering province, though will never drop below 5k. They also bring some of their goods = +300d from target owners treasury to yours) Artemis/Aphrodite
• A Thief in the Night (Effect: Hermes steals from the rich and gives to the poor – ie you! Gold upto the value of 500d is stolen from another Hero and given to you together with valuable of 500d that Hermes has picked up along the way (ie the 500d is guaranteed). Targets gains a CB for 10 years for such effrontery and cannot lose more than half his treasury no matter how many times Hermes visits) Hermes
• I want Justice! (Effect: You have been wronged and go before Athena for Justice. She grants you a CB for the next 30 years on your enemy) Athena

Note: Spells that change DP sliders no matter how many times cast (by you or others) will never change a particular slider by more than +1/-1 in a single session. You can change multiple different sliders though.

5th Level Spells
All level 5 spells require you to have 3 temples of the God or Goddess to cast. If you only have 1 or 2 temples then you can offset the missing temples at a piety cost of 2 VP per missing temple per casting

• Bountiful Harvest (Effect: The shining sun of Apollo beats down providing a bountiful harvest that results in men and women flocking to the province and higher taxes gathered. Tax/Income +2, MP +1, Population +1000, Treasury +300) Apollo
• Summon Greater Hero (Effect: Summon a hero of past ages to lead your armies for one session 5/5/5) Zeus
• Summon siege specialist (Effect: Summon a hero skilled in the art of siege warfare to lead your armies for one session 4/4/4/3) Ares
• War Fleet (Effect: Poseiden brings up from the depths a fleet of ancient ships. It costs you 500d to make repairs – loan added if required – but you gain 40 warships) Poseiden
• Scepter of Law (Effect: Hephaestus forges a mighty Scepter for you increasing your dominion over your people - +1 to each of ADM/MIL/DIP – stacks with other bonuses) Hephaestus
• Enriched Mine (Effect: Dionysus increases the Gold content of your Mine - +30 to an existing Mine, not one created this turn) Dionysus
• Hera’s Fire (Effect: Rumours reach Hera that Zeus is being unfaithful. She sends down a ball of fire at the location where he is dallying which happens to be one of his Temples, sadly burning the edifice to the ground. Random temple of Zeus permanently destroyed) Hera
• Rule of Law (Effect: Makes 3 of your provinces CORES – must target provinces bordering other cores first) Athena
• Finger of death (Effect: The cold finger of Hades touches an enemy Hero, reducing one of his stats by 1 (can be any stats, monarch or leader you choose – cannot go below base levels) Hades
• Make Love not War (Effect: Aphrodite goes to town and in their excitement the local males tear down the city walls to get a better view of the Goddess – Fortress reduced to level 1 in target province) Aphrodite
• Master Trader (Effect: With Hermes skills as a trader you are able to establish a new Center of Trade in one of your provinces.) Hermes
• Tranquility (Effect: Stability is set to +3 regardless of former value and any war exhaustion removed) Artemis

Apollo's hand of healing we'll keep for a level 6 or 7 spell I think .