[TOG] Slavic, Romuva and Suomenusko - discussion thread

[CzokletMuss]

Moderators, please do not move this thread to the mod subforum!

I would like to collect ideas and remarks in this thread so that later it could be used by Paradox or some modder to implement them ingame.

[size=+2]

EASTERN PAGANS - WHAT SHOULD BE CHANGED?​

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[size=+1]GENERAL[/size]
1. pagan CB's. I'd restrict the ambition that lets you wage non-stop subjugation wars to the Norse, and restrict all subjugation CB's to rulers of your same culture group. I don't think we can really mod the AI, or else I would just leave the rest of the CB's in but reduce the aggressiveness of pagans toward other pagan groups. Since we can't, though, I think we'd still need to do something to restrict the conquest CB vs. Finnish and Baltic pagans, because Denmark and Sweden and Norway will still eat up the Baltic and Karelia, just one province at a time.

[size=+1]SLAVIC PAGANS[/size]
1. Piast dynasty in 867 start date fix
Piast family tree in 867 A.D.
1) Chościsko (lowborn), Piast's father
2) Piast of House Piast, Chościsko's son
3) Rzepicha (lowborn), Piast's wife
4) Siemowit of House Piast, Piast's son
Piast's atributes
*Fortune Builder
*Gregarious, Honest, Charitable, Trusting, Content
2. Tribal titles for Polish tribes if possible and if they are not obsolete
3. A carinthian (south slavic) culture group in the duchy of Carinthia
4. Holy site change; Pruszków -> mount Sleza (Lower Silesia) or mount Lysica (Sieradzko-Leczyckie)
5. Holy site change; One of the Slavic holy sites could be located in Kaernten (b_ossiach is an unfortunate name, though), since the capital of Carantania was located there.
6. Special event for Carynthia: A special ceremony was held there when they crowned a new prince/duke. The duke had to dress in peasant clothes ride through the town until he reached the prince's chair where he would be crowned. He had to swear to protect the people and the ceremony was held in the slovene language. He was asked questions like: "Do you swear to protect and do what is best for your people?
7. Slavic temple holding pic should be at least same as norse, not christian church. Aplies to all other northern pagan religions, where this happens.


[size=+1]ROMUVA PAGANS[/size]
1. Romuva faith event that should be held on June 23/24 and called "Līgo" as the Romuva version of Midsummer's night
2. Clearing out the pantheon of Romuva
Pērkons or Perkunas - thunder god(analog of Thor)
Laima - goddess of fortunes
Māra - goddess of nature
Dievs or Dievas - major god of the pantheon(analog of Odin or maybe Frey)
Auseklis - god of sunrise(analog of Heimdall)
Ūsiņš - god of spring(analog to Frey)
Jumis - god of fertility(also analog of Frey, but in the aspect of growth, rather than awakening)
3. Change the holy site: Legendary center of faith somewhere in lands of Nadruvian people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romuva_(temple)
4. Curonians - they were the one of the Baltic tribes who went sea raiding against Danes and Swedes, so maybe they should be granted the same atributes that norse pagan raiders have
5. Tribes: In the modern Latvia region there were 4 Baltic tribes - Curonians, Semigallians, Latgallians and Selonians - one of them is left out
6. Map: Latgale should be renamed to Vidzeme and Daugava should be renamed to Latgale.It isn't strictly historicly accurate but at least it gives better view on the region from modern perspective.
7. Event: fate deciding in Baltic region was based on principle of faith, which in some cases was implemented by a ritual that involved a horse that was bred especially for such occasions. The ritual was as follows - a white horse was brought forward before a crowd.A spear was put before the horse, and then the priest would point out the possibilities - if the horse would step over the spear with left foot then A would happen and if he would step over with the right foot then B would happen. This ritual could be implemented for prisoners - to let them go or not, for invasions - to give support for chieftain or not, and so on.
8.



[size=+1]FINNISH PAGANS[/size]
1. Finnish Paganism should be renamed to something which includes "PERKELE" in some form.

[size=+1]WEST AFRICAN PAGANS[/size]
1. ?


***
Does anybody know whether there was a Slavic "centre of faith" in Plock? I'm slightly surprised by this.
Also "Temple of Pruszków" as a holy site is just terrific (guys from Poland will understand)

 

[Doomdark]

Probably not. The sites are mostly unhistorical in order to make reformation hard enough.

 

[CzokletMuss]

Yes, finally some official answer! Thank you Doomdark, this closes the case I guess.
BTW, great job with TOG. Now will you excuse me, I have some Christians to conquer.

 

[Mauer]

I'm finding the Romuva really hard to play, there's almost no female courtiers to marry at the start date, and most rulers start with no family whatsoever which makes alliances impossible. And the subjugation CB means the Norse have practically free rein to come and conquer everything.

 

[unmerged(494331)]

So they left Christian double cross CoA from XV century for Lithuania, nice. And the magical dear for Samogitia.

 

[trybald]

Protip: Pruszkow is a town just west off Warsaw that, together with its easter counterpart Wolomin, gained unwanted notoriety as centres of gang activity in the 1990s. For several years these unlucky towns were the bywords for mafia.

 

[unmerged(494331)]

On the thread http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romuva_(temple)
Legendary center of faith somewhere in lands of Nadruvian people.

 

[Hazzy]

Doomdark, I'm not sure how the tribal titles work exactly yet, but given that we have high chief of Obodrites in Mecklemburg, why don't we have chief of Polans instead of Great Poland? Great Poland makes no sense in 867 as there is no... Poland ;p

Is it becasue Piast's lands cover de jure Greater Poland duchy? He would have the create button from the beginning? What if I choose not to? At least until Kingdom of Poland is present.

 

[CzokletMuss]

From what I've seen, Pomeranian Slavs get roflstomped by Norse invaders 2 (!) years in the game. New Abbysinia/Nubia?

I would like to collect ideas and remarks in this thread so that later it could be used by Paradox or some modder to implement them ingame.

 

[unmerged(606777)]

Wat? Like seriously, wtf? Husl? Tikhvin?

 

[unmerged(606777)]

Oh and the Slavic Faith icon is awesome. Fo realz. Paradox rox. But please fix the Holy sites, guys.

 

[Hazzy]

-I wonder how would it break the balance if Pruszków holy site was to be moved to Ślęża in either of the Silesias (Upper or Lower). Top liege is Catholic King of Great Moravia, but the ruler there is slavic.
I should test that.

-Piast dynasty for Piast

-tribal titles for Polish tribes if possible and if they are not, you know, obsolete.

All of the above is moddable so no worries

Damn I hate those Slavic, Polan, whatever threads, again everyone has the same bloody avatar

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

Oh and the Slavic Faith icon is awesome. Fo realz. Paradox rox. But please fix the Holy sites, guys.

Doomdark already answered that a few posts up: The holy sites are meant to test the player and make reforming the religion hard (i.e. something the player can do while the AI is likely to fail at), so they've been spread around a bit. Otherwise the problem would be that the pagan religions would almost always reform.

 

[balrog1987]

There is need for a Romuva faith event that should be held on June 23/24 and called "Līgo" as the Romuva version of Midsummer's night which arguably was one of the main celebration days(nights) for the Baltic region people..also there is a need for clearing out the pantheon of Romuva -
Pērkons or Perkunas - thunder god(analog of Thor)
Laima - goddess of fortunes
Māra - goddess of nature
Dievs or Dievas - major god of the pantheon(analog of Odin or maybe Frey)
Auseklis - god of sunrise(analog of Heimdall)
Ūsiņš - god of spring(analog to Frey)
Jumis - god of fertility(also analog of Frey, but in the aspect of growth, rather than awakening)

These names are not 100% historical due to the lack of appropriate written medieval sources. These names are given by the authors of 19th century of national romantism in the Baltic region, that are based upon the regional folklore that was gathered by enthusiasts in this time.

 

[unmerged(606777)]

Doomdark already answered that a few posts up: The holy sites are meant to test the player and make reforming the religion hard (i.e. something the player can do while the AI is likely to fail at), so they've been spread around a bit. Otherwise the problem would be that the pagan religions would almost always reform.

You see, the thing is - even with that in mind it all could have been done in a more meaningful and historically relevant way.

This was what I earlier suggested:

"For Slavonic pagans:

1. Arkona on Rugen
2. Radogost in Mecklenburg
3. Mount Slenzha in Silesia
4. Peryn' in Novgorod
5. Kiev, with it's first organised pantheon (or in game's terms - reformed Slavic pagan).

Wiki says there were some major findings near the mount Troglav in Dalmatia. Perhaps this could be a candidate, I dunno."

Spoiler

Now when the motivation was explained by Doomdark, Mecklenburg is obviously out. Alright that could be replaced by Dalmatia or better - Krakow (it has Pagan related legends about its founding and is close (well, relatively) to where the Zbruch idol was found).

That way it would be spread out evenly and make a fuckton more sense than the current setup.

 

[onodera]

Controlling Kiev + Novgorod + Birlad doesn't feel too hard... Sviatoslav could've reformed the Slavic faith IRL.

 

[balrog1987]

You see, the thing is - even with that in mind it all could have been done in a more meaningful and historically relevant way.

This was what I earlier suggested:

"For Slavonic pagans:



1. Arkona on Rugen
2. Radogost in Mecklenburg
3. Mount Slenzha in Silesia
4. Peryn' in Novgorod
5. Kiev, with it's first organised pantheon (or in game's terms - reformed Slavic pagan).

Wiki says there were some major findings near the mount Troglav in Dalmatia. Perhaps this could be a candidate, I dunno."

Spoiler

Now when the motivation was explained by Doomdark, Mecklenburg is obviously out. Alright that could be replaced by Dalmatia or better - Krakow (it has Pagan related legends and is close (well, relatively) to where the Zbruch idol was found).

That way it would be spread out evenly and make a fuckton more sense than the current setup.

Dragovit, with all due respect - the pictures you provide are at best classified as historical fantasy(Though Gorbatenkov is a talented painter no doubt in that)

The holy site information you provided though is good and could be used.

 

[unmerged(494331)]

There is need for a Romuva faith event that should be held on June 23/24 and called "Līgo" as the Romuva version of Midsummer's night which arguably was one of the main celebration days(nights) for the Baltic region people..also there is a need for clearing out the pantheon of Romuva -
Pērkons or Perkunas - thunder god(analog of Thor)
Laima - goddess of fortunes
Māra - goddess of nature
Dievs or Dievas - major god of the pantheon(analog of Odin or maybe Frey)
Auseklis - god of sunrise(analog of Heimdall)
Ūsiņš - god of spring(analog to Frey)
Jumis - god of fertility(also analog of Frey, but in the aspect of growth, rather than awakening)

These names are not 100% historical due to the lack of appropriate written medieval sources. These names are given by the authors of 19th century of national romantism in the Baltic region, that are based upon the regional folklore that was gathered by enthusiasts in this time.

I have wrote several times about problems on Lithuanian/Baltic side no response no fix, doubt someone will even read your post. Sadly we have to accept that we are not worth of spending time and resources, because our purchasing power is too low to get any decent game/s on our side.

 

[balrog1987]

I have wrote several times about problems on Lithuanian/Baltic side no response no fix, doubt someone will even read your post. Sadly we have to accept that we are not worth of spending time and resources, because our purchasing power is too low to get any decent game/s on our side.

Well if we won't make ourselves heard here, then no one will ever hear our pledge for game improvements that should be made for the Balts We should be trying no matter what

 

[balrog1987]

Dragovit, with all due respect - the pictures you provide are at best classified as historical fantasy(Though Gorbatenkov is a talented painter no doubt in that)

The holy site information you provided though is good and could be used.