Today at 14:30 CET - "how I learned to stop worrying and love the Russian winter"

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Nats

Major
25 Badges
Oct 8, 2007
775
266
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II
I really enjoyed this one.

But what on earth was Johan doing wasting his men by sticking paratroopers in Berlin - that's worse than what Montgomery tried. And I think he is splitting up his attacking front too much he should be doing a feint and a concentrated main attack IMO just like they did in real life D-Day. And he should definitely be using his navy better to get overall control of the seas, no way the Germans should have got away with taking Sweden like that.

Would be interesting to see someone playing Russia for the next one to see if they can turn things around, not too bothered about Japan and the US tbh.

But yeah very enjoyable and nice to see Johan laughing - he usually looks a bit fed up. Mind you doing these streams whilst you have a cold cannot be great fun.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Sir Pellew

Captain
112 Badges
Feb 18, 2013
476
992
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Prison Architect
  • Victoria 2
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Age of Wonders III
My question is. When I played HOI 3 I always ran into supply problems whenever I advanced too far east/north, which makes sense due to long distances and poor infrastructure - especially with motorized units. In the WWW I saw large amounts of (german) troops easily walking around in the area of the northern polar circle. I feel it should probably take more effort to supply troops in harsh area (unless I have missed something)
 
  • 1
Reactions:

shri

Colonel
37 Badges
Jun 9, 2013
1.123
937
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
I personally think, Johan is the perfect UK player, he does some bits and pieces here and there but his main aim is preservation of the Empire, Its Supply lines and Strat Bombing. he has allowed his allies to become cannon fodder for him (very Historical) and has left it for the USA to do D-day (the USA player did those Para Drops, causing nuisance value to Daniel's Supply lines). Look how well he has arranged the Entire African Theatre! and he has also Strat Bombed and created a big nuisance value for the Germans.

I think, the Japan player has also been good (with some LL help) and has fought the whole of China + a substantial portion of USSR (25% or more) and emerged victorious despite starting from a very bad position.

The weakness in the Chain is the USA player who seems to lack the Strategic Insight. But the USA can afford a few divisions lost and then some more.
 

ackack

Recruit
25 Badges
Jan 19, 2016
4
5
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
My question is. When I played HOI 3 I always ran into supply problems whenever I advanced too far east/north, which makes sense due to long distances and poor infrastructure - especially with motorized units. In the WWW I saw large amounts of (german) troops easily walking around in the area of the northern polar circle. I feel it should probably take more effort to supply troops in harsh area (unless I have missed something)
Yeah, I was a little disappointed myself to see that Daniel didn't run into any supply bottlenecks during Russian winter, but especially into spring (no mud season?). It may have helped that he was using an almost all infantry unit composition.
 

Gort11

Field Marshal
84 Badges
May 22, 2011
4.553
3.764
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
I think that was worth the laughs, to be honest. A single paratrooper unit isn't going to win or lose the war, anyway, especially in a world where the USSR collapses like a flan in a cupboard.

-----

I'm curious about the Germany player - when he plays single-player, does he make use of generals at all? In this game he just chucks all his divisions at a field marshal and then does a bit of micro-management here and there. Do general bonuses need to be boosted so that players actually use them?

I must admit I winced when he promoted Rommel and lost all his traits. A general with three positive traits should be valuable, surely?
 
  • 4
Reactions:

kviiri

Field Marshal
37 Badges
Jun 22, 2015
3.345
8.260
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
I think that was worth the laughs, to be honest. A single paratrooper unit isn't going to win or lose the war, anyway, especially in a world where the USSR collapses like a flan in a cupboard.

Aye. But I wonder - had there been more of them, could they have occupied Berlin for long enough to cause serious damage?
 

GsusNSV

Major
102 Badges
May 9, 2012
642
1.194
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • 500k Club
  • PDXCon 2019 "Emperor"
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Prison Architect
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Darkest Hour
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
Aye. But I wonder - had there been more of them, could they have occupied Berlin for long enough to cause serious damage?
I don't know how much damage the occupiation of Berlin alone can do. The stockpile of equipment is not located in the capital (AFAIK). Also supplies are uneffected by it. But loosing your capital will probably give a hit to your NU.
 

Merrivale

Colonel
52 Badges
Oct 9, 2003
800
2.390
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
Regardless of the state of the AI and how easy it is to win over say USSR, shouldn't the www-streams show different ways the game is intended to be played? Both in regards to the variety in complexity of battle plans you can make and execute, and micromanaging that include careful consideration of unit types selected instead of random selection? So far we've only been told that you can make plans as complex as you'd want, but we've never actually seen neither making or executing such.

Totally agree--PI should treat these like video dev diaries to show off the game, then do full scale multiplayer as they get closer to release. It's fun to watch someone playing the game, but it's also frustrating if you're trying to understand how something works and its: a)off-screen, because we are on the other player's screen or b)zipped by quickly because this is MP and requires rapid amounts of decision making.

Not to mention that you can't really read a ton into situations in the game because of the inevitable bugs at this stage of development. In this extended game alone we've had: a bugged Trotsky decision, bugged straits, and now bugged garrison AI, all of which have had an enormous impact on the game. And it sounds like Podcat is having to do a lot of work on the save game files to even keep the game going every week (manually adding airplanes!), presumably instead of working on the game itself.
 

loup99

Godogost of Armorica
78 Badges
Jan 22, 2013
16.589
6.380
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
Thank you for this information! Ultimately, for the player, Germany should a very hard pick in HoI, given the historical circumstances we know. Some late-game malus kicking in would make sense, to reflect that Hitler lost the control and the increased madness of his plans. In observer mode without any players playing any nation, Germany should in my opinion always ultimately fail and be crushed, given that it was organised in a way underneath Hitler that made it bound to collapse and get a lot of internal dissaray. Even with the victory in hand for Germany, there would had been incredible resistance, mutiny and coups sooner or later, because of it being a nazi country. Hopefully that can be modelled into the game without penalising the player too much.

In WWW, one of the advantages for Germany was that he ended up fighting different wars. How could Johan had avoided this? Is it a national focus pick?
 
Last edited:
  • 7
Reactions:

Gort11

Field Marshal
84 Badges
May 22, 2011
4.553
3.764
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
Well, even in a world where the USSR surrenders, Germany's still going to be beaten to the bomb by the allies, and unless the UK itself is taken all of Germany is in range of nuclear strikes.
 

human-looser

Private
65 Badges
Apr 19, 2006
18
4
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • The Kings Crusade
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
In observer mode without any players, Germany should in my opinion always ultimately fail and be crushed, given that it was organised in a way underneath Hitler that made it bound to collapse and get a lot of internal dissaray. Even with the victory in hand for Germany, there would had been incredible resistance, mutiny and coups sooner or later, because of it being a nazi country. Hopefully that can be modelled into the game without penalising the player too much.

Could you go into further detail about what you are trying to say? I don't quite understand what part of the organisation of the country (that was not due to reorganizations during a war that was being lost) would make it sure to collaps. I definitely don't get the idea of it failing exclusively because it was "a nazi country". How would that, in the face of military victory, automatically destroy a country. There are lots and lots of countries in the world that keep stable with brutal dictators, racism and nationalism in place unless foreign intervention destroys them. In a world where a country like that dominates, this kind of foreign intervention seems doomed to failure. You might not have noticed but Germany was internally massively stable untill the eastern front started crumbling. The most threatening attempt at a coup (the only one with any chance of success) was conducted by officers trying to preserve their men in a war already lost (in 1944... a time where the war could have been long over).
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

loup99

Godogost of Armorica
78 Badges
Jan 22, 2013
16.589
6.380
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
Could you go into further detail about what you are trying to say? I don't quite understand what part of the organisation of the country (that was not due to reorganizations during a war that was being lost) would make it sure to collaps. I definitely don't get the idea of it failing exclusively because it was "a nazi country". How would that, in the face of military victory, automatically destroy a country. There are lots and lots of countries in the world that keep stable with brutal dictators, racism and nationalism in place unless foreign intervention destroys them. In a world where a country like that dominates, this kind of foreign intervention seems doomed to failure. You might not have noticed but Germany was internally massively stable untill the eastern front started crumbling. The most threatening attempt at a coup (the only one with any chance of success) was conducted by officers trying to preserve their men in a war already lost (in 1944... a time where the war could have been long over).
Yes, I could. What I'm trying to say is that Hitler had no sense in actual reality, and lost contact with it more and more as it dragged on. Even if he had been victorious, he would had made more key mistakes and distanced himself from the common people. There are no examples of nazi countries lasting, but we can go with that usually extreme-right dictatorship have a hard time keeping up after their initial leader looses touch. Remember that by attacking the Soviet Union with Barbarossa, Hitler putted and engaged a huge communist resistance, far more ideologically motivated than his own people and various semi-hearted right-wing militias. We can see in France that the German occupation faced increasing resistance. I believe that Germany was a paper tiger in terms of stability.
 
  • 5
  • 1
Reactions:

shri

Colonel
37 Badges
Jun 9, 2013
1.123
937
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
Yes, I could. What I'm trying to say is that Hitler had no sense in actual reality, and lost contact with it more and more as it dragged on. Even if he had been victorious, he would had made more key mistakes and distanced himself from the common people. There are no examples of nazi countries lasting, but we can go with that usually extreme-right dictatorship have a hard time keeping up after their initial leader looses touch. Remember that by attacking the Soviet Union with Barbarossa, Hitler putted and engaged a huge communist resistance, far more ideologically motivated than his own people and various semi-hearted right-wing militias. We can see in France that the German occupation faced increasing resistance. I believe that Germany was a paper tiger in terms of stability.
Whole list of Dictators ruling is present in History- Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Pinochet etc other than Hitler and all of them were bloodthirsty too. Doesn't mean their regimes collapsed. In fact, USSR collapsed a good 35+ years after the death of Stalin. It has been over 35 years since Mao died and Communist China still stands tall.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

loup99

Godogost of Armorica
78 Badges
Jan 22, 2013
16.589
6.380
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
Whole list of Dictators ruling is present in History- Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Pinochet etc other than Hitler and all of them were bloodthirsty too. Doesn't mean their regimes collapsed. In fact, USSR collapsed a good 35+ years after the death of Stalin. It has been over 35 years since Mao died and Communist China still stands tall.
Hitler's regime was radically different from Stalin's. I don't consider it to be a good comparison, which is why I choose to compare with other extreme-right dictatorships instead.
 

human-looser

Private
65 Badges
Apr 19, 2006
18
4
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • The Kings Crusade
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
Yes, I could. What I'm trying to say is that Hitler had no sense in actual reality, and lost contact with it more and more as it dragged on. Even if he had been victorious, he would had made more key mistakes and distanced himself from the common people. There are no examples of nazi countries lasting, but we can go with that usually extreme-right dictatorship have a hard time keeping up after their initial leader looses touch. Remember that by attacking the Soviet Union with Barbarossa, Hitler putted and engaged a huge communist resistance, far more ideologically motivated than his own people and various semi-hearted right-wing militias. We can see in France that the German occupation faced increasing resistance. I believe that Germany was a paper tiger in terms of stability.

Hitler wasn't planing on permanently occupying france, and he wasn't planning on leaving locals to rebell in the eastern conquests. A lot of Hitler's "madness" can be attributed to not admitting defeat or failure.

You keep referencing times in the war, where things started to look bleak from a german perspective (like increasing resistance in france which grew in strengh and efficincy with decreasing numbers of forces in france and defeats on the eastern front). Obviously a system based on strength and superiority cannot sustain itself in that situation. At the same time, support inside of Germany was large and oppsition had no real grounds to establish in.
I'm not trying to say there was any real possibilty for a German military victory without an internal collaps of the Soviet Union. But: IF that victory could have been achived I don't see where your idea of coups or revolution come from. Germany had a solid line of very popular and high ranking officials to take over after Hitler, plans set-up for political power to be transitioned and, in case of a victory in the east, would have a big "achivement" to sustain public support for a while. I don't really see how a German victory in for example 1942 in the Soviet Union (most likely followed by peace deals with the Allies) would lead to a crumbling of the state over the next few years. The power and resources gained as a result of the war would have led to high living standards for most Germans, it would have further increased nationalism and the person responsible for that would have been Hitler, which would have allowed him space to slip up for a while without having to fear widespread resistance to him. I definitely fail to see how, in the timeframe this game sets, this supposed inbuild instabilty would have any chance to be a problem.

I get your point that victory in the east was close to impossible. I get the problem of fighting far superior numbers which would (and did) eventually decide the war. I don't really see your point of fighting more enthusiastic troops though. A lot of the Red Army, especially in the beginning, wasn't really happily serving. I fail to see any part of your argument regarding a post victory germany getting major internal problems, especially on central european ground in any timeframe important to the game.

If we consider that not many nazi/fascist states existed in the first place I would really like to see where you get your idea of their instability from. We have Italy -> defeated in war. Germany -> defeated in war. Hungary -> defeated in war. None of these had internal stability problems untill they faced defeat in war. On the contrary. In Italy Mussolini's rule became more and more absolute from 1922 till 1940 and in Germany Hitler consolidated his power and had no problems with resistance at any point before the war with the Soviet Union. There are no signs of internal problems untill the day the leaders lose their image as strong, which they do when they face military defeat.
 

loup99

Godogost of Armorica
78 Badges
Jan 22, 2013
16.589
6.380
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
Hitler wasn't planing on permanently occupying france, and he wasn't planning on leaving locals to rebell in the eastern conquests. A lot of Hitler's "madness" can be attributed to not admitting defeat or failure.
He could neither control France nor the Eastern conquests. Hitler was not a mastermind administrator, and lacked knowledge in howto handle foreign countries. The nazis, with the German model, would had failed in other countries, which they occupied and did not understand. No, the plan was not a permanent occupation, but it was planned to last for a while. A too long while, and a big mistake.
You keep referencing times in the war, where things started to look bleak from a german perspective (like increasing resistance in france which grew in strengh and efficincy with decreasing numbers of forces in france and defeats on the eastern front). Obviously a system based on strength and superiority cannot sustain itself in that situation. At the same time, support inside of Germany was large and oppsition had no real grounds to establish in.
The support in Germany was not that large, it was more the common people that had no chance anyway and had to continue their daily life. Not against does not signify supporting. What I'm arguing is that the system based on strength and superiority would not had survived on the long run, even if victorious, due to it being based around Hitler.
I'm not trying to say there was any real possibilty for a German military victory without an internal collaps of the Soviet Union. But: IF that victory could have been achived I don't see where your idea of coups or revolution come from. Germany had a solid line of very popular and high ranking officials to take over after Hitler, plans set-up for political power to be transitioned and, in case of a victory in the east, would have a big "achivement" to sustain public support for a while. I don't really see how a German victory in for example 1942 in the Soviet Union (most likely followed by peace deals with the Allies) would lead to a crumbling of the state over the next few years. The power and resources gained as a result of the war would have led to high living standards for most Germans, it would have further increased nationalism and the person responsible for that would have been Hitler, which would have allowed him space to slip up for a while without having to fear widespread resistance to him. I definitely fail to see how, in the timeframe this game sets, this supposed inbuild instabilty would have any chance to be a problem.
If a victory was achieved, troops were already far from France and the grip lost in the West and Africa. The Allies would had profited of the war dragging on in the east, which even a Soviet collapse would had required. Or the German military would had turned and fought the Allies, but then would had faced huge resistance in the East. The ambitions were simply too big on the long-term in order for Germany and the Axis to handle the situation. And this is disregarding nukes, Japan, the US etc...
I get your point that victory in the east was close to impossible. I get the problem of fighting far superior numbers which would (and did) eventually decide the war. I don't really see your point of fighting more enthusiastic troops though. A lot of the Red Army, especially in the beginning, wasn't really happily serving. I fail to see any part of your argument regarding a post victory germany getting major internal problems, especially on central european ground in any timeframe important to the game.
My point concerning the troops is not that the Red Army itself was more enthusiastic, but rather that it launched enthusiasm against Hitler and his regime within Europe amongst the many communist sympathisers. This was something which Hitler didn't want to consider, as he ideologically thought communists and socialists were weaker and that he had already done the necessary purges. Even if victorious against the Soviet Union, this would had caused a lot of problems for Hitler internally.
If we consider that not many nazi/fascist states existed in the first place I would really like to see where you get your idea of their instability from. We have Italy -> defeated in war. Germany -> defeated in war. Hungary -> defeated in war. None of these had internal stability problems untill they faced defeat in war. On the contrary. In Italy Mussolini's rule became more and more absolute from 1922 till 1940 and in Germany Hitler consolidated his power and had no problems with resistance at any point before the war with the Soviet Union. There are no signs of internal problems untill the day the leaders lose their image as strong, which they do when they face military defeat.
When the dictator in these states lost his "image" of the great leader, died or lost wars, instability started. I'm arguing that Hitler would had become too mad and weakened his regime crucially, even f the war had been won. Because the regime relied on him and his person, and if turned mad, not even the German propaganda machine could had handled it, as different factions and interests would had turned the realm apart. Also, Hitler was not in the best health, and even if victorious he would had had health issues, and probably died early. Finally, I think it is important to remember that Hitler lost the battle of Britain too, which we couldn't had won with his strategy unless a major UK-collapse, so already there he faced a military defeat.
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

shri

Colonel
37 Badges
Jun 9, 2013
1.123
937
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
Hitler's regime was radically different from Stalin's. I don't consider it to be a good comparison, which is why I choose to compare with other extreme-right dictatorships instead.
On a psychological level it wasn't. That is why the East Germans accepted Communism so easily and implemented the STASI instead of GESTAPO. Only the name changed.

Psychology goes like this - He or they are the enemy, so kill them or persecute them.
Communism and Fascism are 2 sides of the same coin. Case in point- Lenin came from a "Capitalistic Family" and Hitler joined the "Communist party" briefly in the aftermath of WW1.
Hitler learnt organisation from the Communists and Stalin learnt how to purge well from Hitler (there is a famous episode of Stalin, after hearing the "Night of Long Knives" jumping in joy and exclaiming to his cronies- See that is how it is done). This was recounted in detail by Simon Sebag Montefiore in his Biography of Stalin.
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

human-looser

Private
65 Badges
Apr 19, 2006
18
4
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • The Kings Crusade
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
loup, I realize we are of vastly different opinions regarding the impact this or that thing would have had and have very different images of the state of Germany and the german state in the 1940s. And while I really hope the world was as you describe it, (with no chance of stable nazi or right-winged-authoritarian systems), I cannot agree that this the way it works. Further discussion would lead nowhere, as we both find each other (most likely) severely mistaken and unconvincing. So I'll offer a respectfully disagreeing shrug, a handshake and hope you have a nice rest of the weekend ;)
 

loup99

Godogost of Armorica
78 Badges
Jan 22, 2013
16.589
6.380
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
loup, I realize we are of vastly different opinions regarding the impact this or that thing would have had and have very different images of the state of Germany and the german state in the 1940s. And while I really hope the world was as you describe it, (with no chance of stable nazi or right-winged-authoritarian systems), I cannot agree that this the way it works. Further discussion would lead nowhere, as we both find each other (most likely) severely mistaken and unconvincing. So I'll offer a respectfully disagreeing shrug, a handshake and hope you have a nice rest of the weekend ;)
Yes, we disagree on a variety of different points. I agree on that we can agree to disagree on this matter, but hope that HoI4 itself will offer a satisfying mix of the two. :) Good weekend to you as well!