To the guys making GUFSM.

[Walter Hawkwood]

I have started making shields (and some flags) lately, and I would like to participate in your project a bit, and be otherwise generally helpful. I've made several shields you are still missing -

Pskov,

Georgia,

Baluchistan (just made it look better)

and Sibir (not quite khanate arms, but still more historic)

I have also made several other historic & fantasy shields, so if you are interested, just say so, and I will be able to post you these and others in several days. I also have already made alternate sets for Lithuania, Muscowy, Tver, KoJ, Tibet & Kazan.

 

[Birger]

Thanx for your help, but I can't see the things that you've done...

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Then try heading here (http://www.geocities.com/whawkwood/eushields.html). Damn graphics links! Never seem to work right with me.

These are Pskov-Baluchi-Georgia-Sibir all right.

I have also made flags for all except Baluchis. Sibir coat-of-arms actually is a bit older (conquered Sibir within Russia, but I think it is based on a previous one, as were coats for Astrakhan and Kazan).

 

[Birger]

Look good, just curious, where did you find the Georgia shield?

 

[unmerged(9362)]

Originally posted by Birger Jarl
Look good, just curious, where did you find the Georgia shield?

Hi Birger! As usual I've done a research . Here you can find some historical flags for Georgia: Georgia: Feudal states . This coat of arms is based on a flag used in the XII-XIV century (but in another site I've found XII-XV), like the one used by EU2 (so both are not very good for the 1419-1819 period). The good flag for the EU2 era should be an all-white flag, but obviously we cannot use it.

 

[unmerged(7924)]

I love this one:

jk

while at the topic, do you GUM guys have somewhere (a thread) were the puplic can critizise, complain, correct etc. Not that I'm going too but it would be easier than PM you guys.

btw, is it anyway to make the Puritan one (shield) a little bit smaller (the picture I mean)? You can nearly see the flags in the corner.

 

[Birger]

Originally posted by Mormegil
...

while at the topic, do you GUM guys have somewhere (a thread) were the puplic can critizise, complain, correct etc. Not that I'm going too but it would be easier than PM you guys.

btw, is it anyway to make the Puritan one (shield) a little bit smaller (the picture I mean)? You can nearly see the flags in the corner. [/B]

You can do it here

I'll see what I can do about the Puritan shield.

 

[unmerged(7398)]

Is the Georgia shield based on a coat of arms, or just on the flag (as linked to by Wido)? If just the flag, I'd rather use one from the white cross on black (which, according to the World Statesmen site, was used again starting in 1762, so is the second-best option after the unuseable plain white flag). (Oh, and congratulations! You're now the third person to submit a Georgia shield. We need to update more often. )

Originally posted by Walter Hawkwood
Then try heading here (http://www.geocities.com/whawkwood/eushields.html).

Could you provide this in a lossless format? I can't tell if the ugly dithering is because you only provided it in jpg, or if it's on the actual shields. I've done a similar shield for Pskov, from a low-quality source pointed out to my by Stephanos (below); the dithering here is in the actual shield.


While we're on the subject, does anyone know anything about the yellow saltire on green Paradox used for Pskov? I've made a banner-of-arms based on the CoA, but if the saltire flag is accurate, we'll want to stay with that.

I have also made flags for all except Baluchis. Sibir coat-of-arms actually is a bit older (conquered Sibir within Russia, but I think it is based on a previous one, as were coats for Astrakhan and Kazan).

We can't include them if you don't send them to us. A web link is preferable; failing that, please email them directly to me.

 

[Birger]

And here's the fourth...

"Georgian state (V-XVth century)
White field with an emblem, probably Saint George killing the dragon."

Taken from FOTW

 

[unmerged(1047)]

Don't suppose I could impose on one of you to jump over to the Bear Flag thread and fix up my California flag and shield for AoN? The one we have right now... is nowhere near right... and I'm not artist enough to do it myself.

I did however find a beautiful picture of what it should turn out like. (That's over in the Bear Flag thread.)

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

All right, I'm sending them. I have yet to make up some spot for downloads, but these I'm sending via e-mail. I've also made some shields you already have in the project, as follows - Muscowy, Lithuania, Tver, Tibet and KoJ. They are also at http://www.geocities.com/whawkwood/eushields.html now.
First two I tried to make so that they would bear more resemblance to the most traditional versions of heraldic symbols ("riders"). Tver is based on an interesting version of Tver arms I've found on the net, and it shows the "artifact" clearer, if somewhat more schematic. Tibet, as you can see, differs little from original one, just proportions are changed (to more real). KoJ shield, I think, is more accurate with red background, and certainly better visible. See if you could use some of these.

Originally posted by Korath

Could you provide this in a lossless format? I can't tell if the ugly dithering is because you only provided it in jpg, or if it's on the actual shields. I've done a similar shield for Pskov, from a low-quality source pointed out to my by Stephanos (below); the dithering here is in the actual shield.

I have put Pskov coat-of-arms there too. Regarding your shield, why is the dog green? (Pskov is derived from "pes" - "dog").

 

[Birger]

Originally posted by Walter Hawkwood
...

I have put Pskov coat-of-arms there too. Regarding your shield, why is the dog green? (Pskov is derived from "pes" - "dog").

I found some info that says that Pskov used a Panther in old seals and coins... Is this be correct?

 

[unmerged(7398)]

Originally posted by Walter Hawkwood
KoJ shield, I think, is more accurate with red background, and certainly better visible.

Everything I've seen anywhere states again and again that KoJ violated the rule of tinctures, as gold on white. As for accuracy, well, the first known source of the cross potent between four crosses dates to more than a decade after the city was lost.

I have put Pskov coat-of-arms there too. Regarding your shield, why is the dog green? (Pskov is derived from "pes" - "dog").

Because it was in the source. (Hey, I said it was low quality! )

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Originally posted by Birger Jarl


I found some info that says that Pskov used a Panther in old seals and coins... Is this be correct?

Sure. Sure. You cannot doubt that medieval Pskov was full of panthers. The beast was called "panther", but looked more like a dog with a pointed tail (as shown on the crest).

Originally posted by Korath
Everything I've seen anywhere states again and again that KoJ violated the rule of tinctures, as gold on white. As for accuracy, well, the first known source of the cross potent between four crosses dates to more than a decade after the city was lost.

I've found it here: http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Regions/Balkans/Jerusalem.htm
I myself am not sure of the source, but it damn looks much better!

 

[Birger]

Originally posted by Walter Hawkwood


Sure. Sure. You cannot doubt that medieval Pskov was full of panthers. The beast was called "panther", but looked more like a dog with a pointed tail (as shown on the crest)...

Nope and England wasn't full of lions because they had three lions in their shield...

What I meant is that based on the info that I found, old seals of Pskov looked something like this (without the cloud and the hand):

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Originally posted by Birger Jarl


Nope and England wasn't full of lions because they had three lions in their shield...

What I meant is that based on the info that I found, old seals of Pskov looked something like this (without the cloud and the hand):

Don't you think a panther must be black? In medieval Russia, exotic african animals were as mythical as... um... mythical animals. Englishmen surely had chance to see lions during crusades, and even earlier (dating back to Roman exploits), while slavs were not natural explorers, and they were quite isolated. The beast I see is not quite a panther, but maybe a fantasy about how a panther should look like. And this fantasy was largely based on local fauna. In this particular beast I can see dog and bear motives. Large felines as lions or panthers, I think, had no way to get to Pskov then. If you compare the beast to my version of emblem, you'll see its looks were somehow "changeable" - 'cause it depended on artist's fantasy.

 

[Birger]

All panthers isn't black you know...

I don't think England used lions in their shield simply because they had a chance to see them.
It's like you said, the animals were mythical to the people and it could also been that one animal had a specific meaning to them.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

I think it's a puma out there, no?

All right... All I wanted to say is that if something was called "panther", "lion", "elephant" or else in Russia these days, it was not necessary "panther", "lion" and so on. So that MIGHT be a panther.

Speaking of lions, the ones in Trafalgar square in London have domestic cat's proportions

 

[unmerged(7398)]

Originally posted by Birger Jarl
What I meant is that based on the info that I found, old seals of Pskov looked something like this (without the cloud and the hand):

In the main GUFSM thread you state:

Well, I didn't find the actual arms for Pskov, but some info that indicated what the shield looked like. Look here (the text under pic no. 11)

Is the the info you're referring to here? It doesn't imply that Pskov used only a panther; it only states that one is included.

 

[Birger]

Yup that's the info, and knew that.

Btw, I found some info here about Pskov. Under Museum "Administrative Chamber"

With states the following:

"Pskov's state seal - a panther with an upraised paw carved on a stone plate, and a coloured ce-ramic tile bearing an inscription about the building of the chambers. (It is believed that the state seal first de-picted a lynx, but it was gradually changed into a panther)".

So I'm not completly wrong.