To Paradox, Regrading Prussia:

unmerged(5098) · Aug 19, 2001

I know you said you would have certain hard-coded events where some nations have choices as to how to proceed- do you think you could make it so there is some chance of a strong state emerging in Protestant Northern Germany?

The way it is now, there is almost no chance of powerful state in Northern Germany emerging. This effects European geopolitics severly. It most effects games as Austria and Poland- historically these countries faced strong challenges from Prussia, but in EU, this doesn't happen, making games as Austria and Poland less interesting and challenging. To a lesser extent, the vaccum of power in Northern Germany effects every other major except maybe Portugal. Would you consider making more likely for a powerful Protestant state to emerge in Northern Germany?

unmerged(3627) · Aug 19, 2001

That would be Brandenburg, not Prussia (for an explanation of which see half a dozen or more threads on the GD board.) But in practice it wasn't possible for anyone to unite the Germans until well after the EU period, precisely because it would so greatly upset the balance of power. Anyone trying it is going to be a serious badboy and will probably explode from war exhaustion.

Agelastus · Aug 19, 2001

It's quite doable for a human by diplo-annexation. Even AI Brandenburg (especially when playing with the IGC's united Prussia option) can manage two or three of these in most games.

But EU2 needs to seriously remodel that area-it would be nice if they could get the Teutonic Knights, and the associated Livonian Knights, correct this time round!

unmerged(592) · Aug 19, 2001

yeah...

unmerged(5372) · Aug 19, 2001

GOOD IDEA!

Originally posted by Agelastus
But EU2 needs to seriously remodel that area-it would be nice if they could get the Teutonic Knights, and the associated Livonian Knights, correct this time round!

Well, the idea of including those is cool, despite the fact that their power was decreasing or even seriousely over in the EU era. Prhaps we can do better

I think I should try to play the IGC, never done that, but playing Prussia for example isn't really hard..well

But I like the idea

Regards,

Witte de With

unmerged(5098) · Aug 19, 2001

Originally posted by Heyesey
That would be Brandenburg, not Prussia (for an explanation of which see half a dozen or more threads on the GD board.) But in practice it wasn't possible for anyone to unite the Germans until well after the EU period, precisely because it would so greatly upset the balance of power. Anyone trying it is going to be a serious badboy and will probably explode from war exhaustion.

It is probabably unlikely for the AI to ever manage to unify Germany, though a human player can through sufficent diplo-annexation(I think I must have diplo-annexed at least 5 times when I played Brandenburg)-I would like it to be more likely for a strong state like real life Prussia was back then to emerge that wouldn't have all north germany but would have enough to be a power...

das · Aug 19, 2001

Well, one time when I played hands off, Bradenburg was a third state to become Protestant, then it defeated Poland and gained Western Pommerania (Pommerania was annexed by Poland one year before Reformation) and Western Prussia. Then, it annexed Saxony and Hansa, but loose Magdeburg to Bohemia. But, it comed back when, in alliance with Hungary, it diveded Bohemia: Moravia and Sudeten to Hungary, rest of Bohemia to Bradenburg. Then, it won a war with Poland (Hungary was also there in begining, but then gave up Carpathia to Poland.) and gained Posen and Danzig. Then, it won a war with Prussia, and gained Memel from it. In next war, it tried to conquer Bavaria, but was defeated and ceded Anhalt to it. Around 1600, it annexed Holstein and Prussia. So it was a super empire. In 1700, it unified much of Northern Germany, expect for Kleve, Hessen (Munster was already gained), Holstein (which declared independence) and Anhalt (still Bavarian). In 1792, it annexed much of Germany, and even gained Luxembourg and Hainaut from France. Only Wurtemberg, Austria, Lorraine and Holstein stay independent in Germany. That was a strange story. If game would have ended in 1820, Germany would be united!

Agelastus · Aug 19, 2001

Brandenburg normally gives a reasonable performance in my games-but nothing like that! That's as close to a human player's standard as I've heard for an AI nation!

Wonder how they'd have done if it wasn't a hands-off game, and you'd helped them a little!

unmerged(3627) · Aug 19, 2001

There's always ONE minor country that does surprisingly well, and Brandenburg, being a biggish minor, crops up more often than most. Although I admit, seeing it annex half of the Crimea one time was a little odd

It's a side effect of the rule that states "it is extremely unlikely that nothing unlikely will happen."

Agelastus · Aug 20, 2001

Originally posted by Heyesey
It's a side effect of the rule that states "it is extremely unlikely that nothing unlikely will happen."

True, true-maybe I should find a way to post "super Crimea"-I've still got the save-game somewhere!

Besuchov · Aug 20, 2001

Especially in IGC Brandenburg grows quite well. I believe this is due to the fact that the Prussian leaders doubles as Brandeburg leaders.

Agelastus · Aug 20, 2001

Originally posted by Besuchov
Especially in IGC Brandenburg grows quite well. I believe this is due to the fact that the Prussian leaders doubles as Brandeburg leaders.

I didn't realise they didn't do that in the original GC-you mean that Prussia got all the decent leaders that should technically have been Brandenburg's? Sloppy of Paradox if so.

unmerged(4273) · Aug 20, 2001

Originally posted by Agelastus
It's quite doable for a human by diplo-annexation. Even AI Brandenburg (especially when playing with the IGC's united Prussia option) can manage two or three of these in most games.

But EU2 needs to seriously remodel that area-it would be nice if they could get the Teutonic Knights, and the associated Livonian Knights, correct this time round!

Indeed! Imagine my surprise when, as Turkey playing IGC, I conquer Saxony -- only to discover that AI Brandenburg had either conquered or diploannexed every other nation in northern Germany except Denmark (which it had pushed north quite severely)... The Spanish Netherlands forming the one border ... Poland on the other.

Needless to say, when Brandenburg decided to declare war on me (after my just having fought off a round of BB wars), they gave me a severe beating and added Saxony and another local territory to it's empire...

Right now, in my game (which has really not gone according to the usual form!), the four power blocks are Spain (with England, Scotland, Ireland and the Knights), France (with Genoa and Navarra), Brandenburg (Palatinat), and Turkey (Hafsid Empire, Uzbeks) and Brandenburg is the one that is scaring a lot of nations right now.

unmerged(4273) · Aug 20, 2001

Originally posted by Heyesey
There's always ONE minor country that does surprisingly well, and Brandenburg, being a biggish minor, crops up more often than most. Although I admit, seeing it annex half of the Crimea one time was a little odd

It's a side effect of the rule that states "it is extremely unlikely that nothing unlikely will happen."

I think these little unlikely tidbits are perhaps some of the most enjoyable parts of the game for me... I almost always will pick a minor or two, ally with them, and then help them to become similarly powerful (in current game, the Hafsids, my allies, have lands stretching from Tunisia in a complete crescent into Kurdistan...)

Besuchov · Aug 20, 2001

Originally posted by Agelastus

I didn't realise they didn't do that in the original GC-you mean that Prussia got all the decent leaders that should technically have been Brandenburg's? Sloppy of Paradox if so.

I may very well remember wrong, sorry in that case. The only thing I could find in the IGCReadme related to improved Brandenburg right now is:

From Readme_IGC_2_3.txt
-----------
- Munster, Kleve, Western Pommerania, Eastern Pommerania, Eastern Prussia, Western Prussia, Silesia and Danzig now bear Brandenburgian CB shields. This was done mainly to encourage growth in the historical directions.

-----------
- Friedrich Wilhelm I and Friedrich II have now their historical events also when appearing in Brandenburg.
-----------

unmerged(4868) · Aug 21, 2001

Originally posted by Besuchov

From Readme_IGC_2_3.txt
-----------
- Munster, Kleve, Western Pommerania, Eastern Pommerania, Eastern Prussia, Western Prussia, Silesia and Danzig now bear Brandenburgian CB shields. This was done mainly to encourage growth in the historical directions.

this is a step in the right direction. By giving them free CB shields, you give them better incentives to unify

unmerged(3627) · Aug 21, 2001

But since any and all of the German states had just as much incentive to unify Germany as did Brandenburg ... shouldn't all of them have the same lot of CB shields?

Rex Francorum · Aug 21, 2001

I don't think they should. Why Brandenburg was successful? good leaders, good moves (war & diplomacy). Prussia didn't have real CB against Austria to grab Silesia (and I don't talk of Poland's partition).
Brandenburg did not have "real" CB. They only profit of the situation to expand.

unmerged(3627) · Aug 21, 2001

Depends on which aspect of the CB you're looking at. On the domestic front, a CB means no loss of stability; the populace support your efforts. Every German state should have the support of its people for trying to unify Germany under its banner.

On the foreign front, having a CB means less of a badboy hit. This really needs to be separated from whether or not the population support you; a cause might be perfectly valid to the Germans but considered with great suspicion by the French, English, Dutch, Russians and Turks.

On the same lines, whether or not you suffer nationalism shouldn't be directly linked to whether or not you have a CB shield on a province; you should be able to have "CB provinces" which are NOT "core provinces." In this case, Brandenburg's three initial provinces would be Core; no country would object to Brandenburg DoWing someone to get them back. All other German principalities would be CB provinces, but foreign powers would still look askance at Brandenburg conquering too many of them. There should be less nationalism revolts for Brandenburg conquering bits of Germany than, say, half of Holland or a chunk of Italy. And, my original point, what goes for Brandenburg should go for all the German states.

Rex Francorum · Aug 21, 2001

But consider

1-If all german countries have "moral" right (CB) to unify under one country, can you imagine the almost atomic reaction it will create(atoms in contact with others

) in "Germany"! Quite spectacular, but realistic? I understand you point. But imagine, at furious level, within 50 years, you will have a german cannibalism...

2-So, if countries do not have CB "against" (or have reasons to liberate other germans from mad princes) all others countries, what will determine the CB provinces? Do we know what are Bavarian natural frontiers? Saxony, Baden, Palatinate, etc.?

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