To ascend or not ascend, that is the question. Is it better to ascend or spend slots on....

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Sheriff Godwin Law

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Yeah, all of this will be pointless if, hypothetically, enslaved Syncretic Proles allow such rapid initial expansion and development that you're able to dominate enough surrounding space in the era of corvettes to become uncatchable by even an advanced start.

At that stage, we just need to hope Paradox introduces compelling gameplay for protectorate minors, possibly a game mode where you start as a small backwards planet on an island, surrounded by a galaxy fully colonized by empires and federations with mid-game tech.
 

Shatterfury

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So if we can have like 8 ascension perks, wouldn`t it make sense to put the second ascension phase to perk number 6 rather than 4 ?
I think that the vast majority of empires would be able to unlock 4 ascension perks.
What is so special about ascension if the majority can do it ? Even if some NPC empire stay clear from them I bet that most of the empires would be ascended by the late phase of the game.

If combining all 3 level 1 ascension would seem too much, how about allowing level 1 biological ascension synergise with level 1 psionic or cybernetisation ?

Any thoughts ?


What happens to my research if I decide to go for Voidborn and build lots of habitats in a single system?
Do I still suffer penalties per habitat built?
Habitats count as planets.
 

Alblaka

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My larger point, however, is that someone who chooses food instead of energy for POPs isn't an idiot who doesn't understand math.
Apologies if you took offense by that, but you are the first one I've seen who doesn't go "But robots eat energy and I always run out of energy because of my fleet, thus robots are expensive and bad" when it comes to this topic.
The examples you provided clearly prove that there are edge cases in which Food is less valuable (or even neglectible, albeit I would call that no-food-slave-planet an exploit, which will be inherently impossible in 1.5) than Energy. Albeit I will stand with my previous statement, amended, that in general Energy is cheaper than Food (and more so in 1.5 Materialist Empires built around Synths and Energy).
 

Sinister2202

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Think about it for a bit. No really.

Hive Mind is compose of a SINGLE conscience that is immortal. IE if the original Hive Mind organic brain generations die off then the "ruler conscience" just move over to a newer generation of organic brains. So why are ruler and leader different when it comes to leader/ruler conscience aging process?

There lies the problem. If you want to have a Hive Mind immortal ruler and non-immortal leader. There has to be a second species somewhere or the description/definition they are using for Hive Mind is wrong.

I don't like the way they are taking Hive Mind to be honest. But until I see it in action. I will just hold my judgement in reserve.
From dev diary...
"The Immortal Hive Mind rules absolutely over the population of non-sentient worker drones, using sentient 'Autonomous Drones' (Leaders) to extend the reach of its will."
 

Secret Master

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The examples you provided clearly prove that there are edge cases in which Food is less valuable (or even neglectible, albeit I would call that no-food-slave-planet an exploit, which will be inherently impossible in 1.5) than Energy. Albeit I will stand with my previous statement, amended, that in general Energy is cheaper than Food (and more so in 1.5 Materialist Empires built around Synths and Energy).

I can agree with these statements. :)

There are also things we don't know yet. Depending on how, ummm, nutritious livestock is, it might change the math significantly for hive minds and certain kinds of conquerors. Biological ascendency with livestock and large conquests might mean that it's cheaper to treat biomass like the Tyranids and just eat everything than to do regular farming or have any robots/synths at all.

Also, depending on how productive Dyson Spheres are with energy, you might end up using one Dyson to "feed" 500+ synthetic POPs in your empire.

Which brings us back to the point of this discussion. Maybe ascending as a synthetic materialists might be better in situations when you have megastructures on the menu as well.
 

The Founder

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Hive Mind is compose of a SINGLE conscience that is immortal. IE if the original Hive Mind organic brain generations die off then the "ruler conscience" just move over to a newer generation of organic brains. So why are ruler and leader different when it comes to leader/ruler conscience aging process?

There lies the problem. If you want to have a Hive Mind immortal ruler and non-immortal leader. There has to be a second species somewhere or the description/definition they are using for Hive Mind is wrong.
You the player are already the immortal ruler of the Empire. That "ruler" figure is only there to provide some termporary bonuses and maybe incentivse some specific playstyles.
You will be less able to just pick the perfect ruler, based on the Ruler affecting Faction/Ethos Atraction in 1.5

With Hiveminds it could well be that there is only one set of Ruler bonuses. Or no Ruler bonuses at all. So swapping a ruler does not really make sense.

@Secret Master The slave planet trick won't work come Utopia. Food is going to become empire wide so you cannot create localized starvation anymore. If you are starving your slave planet then you are starving your research planet as well.
It was most definitely an exploit.
And even without Global Food, 0 Happiness might well produce so much unrest that you can not have enough armies on the planets to quell it.
And unrest gives production penalty across the board. Plus propably a Unity penalty too.

The unrest basically replaces the "Strike" and "Rebellion" Faction actions. And as such can not be simply dodged by forcing everyone into a supressed Malcontent Slaves faction.

At that stage, we just need to hope Paradox introduces compelling gameplay for protectorate minors, possibly a game mode where you start as a small backwards planet on an island, surrounded by a galaxy fully colonized by empires and federations with mid-game tech.
I know of a simple way to make that gamemode:
Just make all AI's advanced starts.

What happens to my research if I decide to go for Voidborn and build lots of habitats in a single system?
Do I still suffer penalties per habitat built?
They do still count as planets with the +10% penalty. And thier current size of 12 makes them rather ineffective "colonies" for research penalty purposes.
However they are also awesome sources of reserach, having a 4/4/4 or 5/5/5 building.
Also thier micro is drastically reduced, with them having only one realy powerfull tier of every building.
 

Tavior

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From dev diary...
"The Immortal Hive Mind rules absolutely over the population of non-sentient worker drones, using sentient 'Autonomous Drones' (Leaders) to extend the reach of its will."

That same statement doesn't say anything for or against leader's immortality. But it will not make sense if you can't keep that one good drone by moving his personality from drones to drones the same way you "the leader" can. Balancing issues and gameplay reasons aside that is.

Until there is a dev play through of Hive Empire we can't say for sure one way or another. It is all speculation at this point and will likely change before release date.
 

Secret Master

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And even without Global Food, 0 Happiness might well produce so much unrest that you can not have enough armies on the planets to quell it.

Not really.

You should know that in the game where I posted that screenshot, I never even bothered to suppress malcontent slaves. I would just shoot them.

Slave armies are cheap, even in terms of energy credits. To give you an idea of how cheap it is to deal with malcontent slaves in the current version of the game, putting 12 slave armies on all planets was still half as expensive as my navy. And that is if I didn't want to bother suppressing the faction.

In that game, it would only cost me 1.41 influence a month to suppress 700+ malcontent slave POPs. So, I can either pay some energy credits or some influence. I chose shooting them in that particular game just to prove a point about being a repressive slave society.

If the next expansion will not let you starve slave populations like I did, it's probably for the best. Of course, then I will have to run the numbers on slave-based agriculture worlds and livestock populations. Imagine the food possibilities if livestock cost less energy than farms manned by slaves..... :eek:
 

Alblaka

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There are also things we don't know yet. Depending on how, ummm, nutritious livestock is, it might change the math significantly for hive minds and certain kinds of conquerors. Biological ascendency with livestock and large conquests might mean that it's cheaper to treat biomass like the Tyranids and just eat everything than to do regular farming or have any robots/synths at all.

Well, we do know the not-final-are-not-final-values, which are a static +2 food produced (and 100% food production, but 0% everything else) for livestock, and +4 (with same modifiers) for purging by eating.
 

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And we got some serious clarification on Synthethic Ascension:
There are no new droid portraits, but it's something we do plan to add in the future.

Your new synthetic race will include any previously built synths, and you create more pops by building them.

When you complete the synthetic evolution, any farms worked by synths turn into power plants.

Non-awakened Keepers of Knowledge will not attack ascended synth empires, but awakened ones will.
 

Sinister2202

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That same statement doesn't say anything for or against leader's immortality. But it will not make sense if you can't keep that one good drone by moving his personality from drones to drones the same way you "the leader" can. Balancing issues and gameplay reasons aside that is.

Until there is a dev play through of Hive Empire we can't say for sure one way or another. It is all speculation at this point and will likely change before release date.
It's basically saying leaders are the autonomous drones, therefore it's not really THE hive mind. The hive mind and its "ideals" are only from rulers, and they are "immortal". And because of them being "autonomous", I don't think moving the personality from one to another is possible.
 

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And we got some serious clarification on Synthethic Ascension:

The farms instantly turn into power plants?

7j15tXU.jpg


That makes synthetic ascension look very nice. I was worried I'd have to waste time and minerals swapping the farms over.
 

Tavior

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It's basically saying leaders are the autonomous drones, therefore it's not really THE hive mind. The hive mind and its "ideals" are only from rulers, and they are "immortal". And because of them being "autonomous", I don't think moving the personality from one to another is possible.

Erm...

You do KNOW what autonomous means here right? Autonomous doesn't meant they are not the same species as the Ruler of Hive Mind... It just means that they have enough independence to make their own decisions. If anything it means those drone are more likely have the same capacity as their ruler.

Google say this on definition of autonomous (at least the one that corresponding to used in this context)

Adjective: acting independently or having the freedom to do so.

https://www.google.com/search?q=autonmous&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=autonomous&*

It doesn't means that the "autonomous drones" are NOT immortal by virtue from the same species as ruler of Hive Mind.
 

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It doesn't means that the "autonomous drones" are NOT immortal by virtue from the same species as ruler of Hive Mind.
The Hivemind ruler is immortal by virtue of being the result of all the non sentient pops/the sum process running on all that meat hardware.
The only way to 'kill' a Hivemind Ruler would be to kill, conquer or free all it's drones.

Kill 99% of the servers of a cloud application. You might eliminate 99% of it's storage* and 99% of it's processing power, but it will not stop that application from running until you killed 100%. Continuity of existence as long as one drone remains.

No fallen empie can "Assasinate" a Hivemind Ruler upon winning a war.
Age will not kill it, only make it repalce a lot of the nodes.
AI rebellion sabotage can not kill the leader. It is not a single entity to kill.
If you kill 99% of it's pops you killed 99% of it's production and research capacity**. But you did not kill "it".


*Storage rarely matters for cloud/distributed applications. Unless it is a storage cloud. At wich point there are propably less volatile backups.

**The technology base can be easily held in even 1 pop unit.
 

Tavior

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The Hivemind ruler is immortal by virtue of being the result of all the non sentient pops/the sum process running on all that meat hardware.
The only way to 'kill' a Hivemind Ruler would be to kill, conquer or free all it's drones.

Kill 99% of the servers of a cloud application. You might eliminate 99% of it's storage* and 99% of it's processing power, but it will not stop that application from running until you killed 100%. Continuity of existence as long as one drone remains.

No fallen empie can "Assasinate" a Hivemind Ruler upon winning a war.
Age will not kill it, only make it repalce a lot of the nodes.
AI rebellion sabotage can not kill the leader. It is not a single entity to kill.
If you kill 99% of it's pops you killed 99% of it's production and research capacity**. But you did not kill "it".


*Storage rarely matters for cloud/distributed applications. Unless it is a storage cloud. At wich point there are propably less volatile backups.

**The technology base can be easily held in even 1 pop unit.

I am aware of how that works...

What I am saying is leaders are themselves capable of transfer their conscience from old body to new body just like their ruler are.

Just because they are autonomous doesn't mean they can't do it as well. But they, autonomous drones, have fewer body that their decision making process is being run on.



To use my favorite example of a Hive Mind, MorningLightMountain, albeit bit more cybernetic orientated than current Stellaris in-game mechanics allows.

Now image a Hive Mind civilization in the stone age and no innate pseudo PSI with two distinct members of the same species. One is basically the foot farmer/soldier/other brawn roles and to make it simple I will call this one motile. The other one is the brain also known as immotile. Now the brain is actually "four motile" merged into a single body discarding their arm and leg. The immotile pass along "to do list for the day" to each motile it control. So motiles doesn't really have any meaningful autonomous at any point whatsoever.

Now fast forward to space age. The immotile long ago stop using physical contact to pass along commands and instead turn to cyber implants to allow long-distance communicate with their motile. Image the Hive Mind with a matrix like jack directly to their nerve that receive pulses. Then turn it to radio wave or something much easier to transmit over long distance. Then the motile act on that command as soon it get it.

Now to work around the problem of radio wave taking years to reach, assuming no FTL communication which Stellaris has, their long distance immotile cluster or motile etc... They basically made the various immotile cluster capable of making it own decision over short-term strategy/tactic and other not so important things.



So long story short. A Hive Mind is capable of having autonomous members, leaders to use Stellaris name, that are also immortal themselves or to put it another way there is more than one copy if smaller than original Ruler running in parallel across the entire species with different scope of responsible.

IE Admiral only pay attention to his own fleet operation while governor deals with logistic/nuance of running a planet. With a personality to over-watch all of it at once.
 

Peko?

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What I am saying is leaders are themselves capable of transfer their conscience from old body to new body just like their ruler are.
In Stellaris they aren't.
 

Tavior

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In Stellaris they aren't.

Do you have any proof? I am asking because I have yet to see any proof one way or another.

If anything they should be immortal otherwise I would have one more reason to not play a Hive Mind.
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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So long story short. A Hive Mind is capable of having autonomous members, leaders to use Stellaris name, that are also immortal themselves or to put it another way there is more than one copy if smaller than original Ruler running in parallel across the entire species with different scope of responsible.

Maybe, but probably not. We are dependent on Paradox's take on the Hivemind concept and not what makes sense to us, and Paradox's take on the Hivemind concept is going to be the one that most seemlessy fits into the existing mechanics of this game.

The existing mechanics of this game are leaders that grow old and die, with technologies that allow them to live longer and maximize the most productive period at the end of their life. You might be right that Hivemind leaders will be as immortal as the Hivemind Empress, but the existing mechanics are the default, you'd want to find proof that those are being changed and in this case there isn't any.
 

Tavior

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Maybe, but probably not. We are dependent on Paradox's take on the Hivemind concept and not what makes sense to us, and Paradox's take on the Hivemind concept is going to be the one that most seemlessy fits into the existing mechanics of this game.

The existing mechanics of this game are leaders that grow old and die, with technologies that allow them to live longer and maximize the most productive period at the end of their life.

Except robot leader/ruler are actually immortalized already. I saw something official somewhere. Ahh found it!

Your population will benefit from all the advantages normally conferred to Synths in production and research, and all your leaders will be immortal, able to be killed only in battle or through events.

So it doesn't make sense that they can't do it to Hive Mind leader too if they can for synth unless "gameplay reasons".