To ascend or not ascend, that is the question. Is it better to ascend or spend slots on....

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NHunter_rus

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And especially Hiveminds need the 2nd Ability to integrate conquered species.
I was under the impression that full bio-ascension was needed for adding/removing Hive Mind trait. The dev diary says, you need "Advanced Genemodding", but doesn't specify, whether it is in "Engineered Evolution" or "Evolutionary Mastery" perk. So, I assumed that it is in the latter.

Well, yeah, Hive Mind empires might want to reserve 3rd and 4th slots for ascension, but the first two are still a fair game.
 

The Founder

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I was under the impression that full bio-ascension was needed for adding/removing Hive Mind trait. The dev diary says, you need "Advanced Genemodding", but doesn't specify, whether it is in "Engineered Evolution" or "Evolutionary Mastery" perk. So, I assumed that it is in the latter.

Well, yeah, Hive Mind empires might want to reserve 3rd and 4th slots for ascension, but the first two are still a fair game.
That is what I mean with 2nd Ability of the Ascension Path.

As it get's no influence from Factions, a hive mind would be even more interested in buffing his pops. Especially longer lived rules could be easily a requirement due to low Influence Income.
 

Tavior

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That is what I mean with 2nd Ability of the Ascension Path.

As it get's no influence from Factions, a hive mind would be even more interested in buffing his pops. Especially longer lived rules could be easily a requirement due to low Influence Income.

As far I am aware Hive Mind leader are immortal... Just look at the second line below red "disabled tutorial". It is a safe bet to say leader (admiral, scientist, governor, general) will also be immortal.

index.php
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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From Dev Diary 62

The Immortal Hive Mind rules absolutely over the population of non-sentient worker drones, using sentient 'Autonomous Drones' (Leaders) to extend the reach of its will.

I'm reasonably sure only the one Empire leader is immortal. It just seems like they went out of their way to explain the existence of the rest of their leaders as individuals that they'd use the normal leader mechanics.
 

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I'm reasonably sure only the one Empire leader is immortal. It just seems like they went out of their way to explain the existence of the rest of their leaders as individuals that they'd use the normal leader mechanics.

Hence why I said safe bet.

To be frank with you. I kind of wished they had put more forethought into how Hive Mind would play out. Right now the advantage seem limited compared to the draw backs.
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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I saw someone earlier describe it as an option for people who don't want to mess with the faction mechanics. While I'm not entirely sure that was the intent it would make sense.

The big theme of the Utopia expansion actually seems to be an attempt to provide as many different "other" ways to play as possible. Each of the three mutually exclusive racial ascension paths create significant game play changes in late game, then you have the expansion exclusive government starting traits like fanatic purifier that to varying degrees of flavor and difference from the very start of the game. Even the purge and slavery options will create a stark contrast between the options available to a Xenophobe and the other ethos.

Which is pretty well in line with the other grand strategy games we see from Paradox, EU4, CK2 and Vichy2 all have dramatically different experience both at start and throughout depending on the starting set up you pick. It's how they get so much life out of their products, each major expansion breaths new life in by adding a fascinating new facet that builds off of the existing mechanics enough to still be accessible, but completely transforms at least one method of play.
 

The Founder

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As far I am aware Hive Mind leader are immortal... Just look at the second line below red "disabled tutorial". It is a safe bet to say leader (admiral, scientist, governor, general) will also be immortal.

I'm reasonably sure only the one Empire leader is immortal. It just seems like they went out of their way to explain the existence of the rest of their leaders as individuals that they'd use the normal leader mechanics.
There was always the destinction between the Ruler and a Leader.
So I asume mortal Leaders, but immortal Ruler.

To be frank with you. I kind of wished they had put more forethought into how Hive Mind would play out. Right now the advantage seem limited compared to the draw backs.
They are putting a lot of work into that Mechanic.
A fair share of the 4 months Development time for 1.4.1 to 1.5/Utopia (9th December 2016 to 6th April 2017) goes into it, after all.

People keep talking this kind of stuff about planned mechanics since the abolishment of Embassies for Trust, because they simply lacked the whole picture. How about we wait till it is actually out before we judge a whole mechanic as "entirely useless"?
 

AmpsterMan

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I forsee the Ascension and megastructure perks to not be "optimal play". Often times, the boring but practical approach is what wins out . That said, I'm totally going to be playing with the ascension paths like it's nobodies business. Perfectly engineered superhumans on Ringworlds? What is not to like!
 

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There was always the destinction between the Ruler and a Leader.
So I asume mortal Leaders, but immortal Ruler.


They are putting a lot of work into that Mechanic.
A fair share of the 4 months Development time for 1.4.1 to 1.5/Utopia (9th December 2016 to 6th April 2017) goes into it, after all.

People keep talking this kind of stuff about planned mechanics since the abolishment of Embassies for Trust, because they simply lacked the whole picture. How about we wait till it is actually out before we judge a whole mechanic as "entirely useless"?

Think about it for a bit. No really.

Hive Mind is compose of a SINGLE conscience that is immortal. IE if the original Hive Mind organic brain generations die off then the "ruler conscience" just move over to a newer generation of organic brains. So why are ruler and leader different when it comes to leader/ruler conscience aging process?

There lies the problem. If you want to have a Hive Mind immortal ruler and non-immortal leader. There has to be a second species somewhere or the description/definition they are using for Hive Mind is wrong.

I don't like the way they are taking Hive Mind to be honest. But until I see it in action. I will just hold my judgement in reserve.
 

mrt1212

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As near as I can figure they...

went heavy into research, because their research wasn't hit by multiple colonies early on that produced no research they got an edge. Because they didn't need to worry about ethics divergence, they chose the open thought policy that dramatically increases research speed at the trade off of greater ethics divergence. These things allowed them to pull ahead of their neighbors. They aggressively planted frontier outposts to limit their rivals growth and capture as much territory as possible. I'm pretty sure he hired and fired alot of scientists until he found one that increased the spawn chance of anomalies. Of course they laid down as many research and mining stations as possible to milk as much as they can out of uncolonized space. They focused heavily on border expansion technology, and energy weapons technology. A few wars allowed them to force abandonment of planets that were encroaching on their increasing border size, which allowed more resources. Interestingly, they won the wars with a corvette spam strategy at first, but then expanded that building star bases/star fortresses to reinforce their single large space port. On the offensive the AI's doomstack will go after your largest space port first.

The most important thing they did was stay active and aggressive, even though they were not expanding they were able to keep their neighbors from building up large enough that their growing tech advantage was overcome.

But here, don't just trust my likely flawed analysis after the fact, take a look yourself.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-one-planet-empire-the-op-opm.953291/

In Civ, the one city challenge was always one of the crowning achievements for any player - cool to see that idea is alive in this game.
 

Secret Master

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Off-Topic, but it bothers me how many people can't do basic math and cannot see that eating 1 energy is far superior to eating 1 food. Energy is produced
  • +1 compared to any other ressource building of the same tier
  • gets a % bonus from Energy Hub, opposed to food not having such a bonus building at all
  • can be mined from orbitals
  • (is global, an advantage energy loses over food, but a for pre-1.5, is still significant)

Actually, I can do basic math. I'm not an idiot. And you are missing some situations where POPs using energy is inferior to POPs using food.

Let's start with this wonderful, paradise planet:

2016_12_26_1.png

This planet, the Risa-like resort that it is, generates only 5 food to support its population. It only generates some food because I need a capital complex, and capital complexes generate more adjacency bonuses/minerals than just putting a mine there.

Thanks to slavery (none of this regulated slavery nonsense; I'm running the hardcore kind with slave processing facilities and everything), the starvation on this planet matters not at all. Who cares if the slaves starve? Worst case scenario, I have to grab a POP from a breeder world if a POP dies/goes on the Interstellar Railroad for 50 influence. If these POPs ate energy instead of food, this planet would consume 22 more energy than it does now.

Note that it is not as efficient, but I could hypothetically accept the slave penalty to energy (-33%) and starve slaves harvesting energy. I could give up all the farms on a slave-energy planet, build extra power plants, and come out a bit ahead on energy. If those slaves were instead synths who ate energy, I couldn't do that.

(This approach doesn't work with science production and labs, obviously, as the penalty for slaves doing research makes labs manned by slaves pointless.)

There are also plenty of bonuses to food production that do not depend on buildings. Slaves benefit from just being slaves (+20% to food), pitharan dust (+20%), stimulant diets (+5% repeatable), and the agrarian trait (+15% when working a food tile). (The slave processing facility adds another 10% to food, but it uses energy and takes up a tile, so it might not be the best way to generate food.) If you are running a slavery based empire with the right resources, techs, and species traits, there might be benefits to producing food in lieu of energy.

Remember that the capital is basically free food. Capitals do not cost energy, and they provide adjacency bonuses, so you really shouldn't replace them with something else (even if you don't need them to build upgraded buildings after you build the upgraded buildings). This means that the first 2-7 POPs on a planet cost food, but that the food cost is irrelevant since it is covered by the capital (depends on which capital you currently have and what food resources are on the tile the capital occupies). Remember that all the bonuses to food production can be applied to the POP farming the capital, so you can leverage the food on capital with slaves and agrarian POPs.

Let's also consider that the orbital hydroponic farm will produce 3 food for the cost of 1 energy.

So, depending on the situation, you might be able to feed a planet with up to 10 POPs for the cost of 1 energy and since you can't fill a star port with multiples of the same kind of module, that orbital hydroponics farm isn't sharing an opportunity cost with solar panels that produce 3 energy. In this situation, if the POPs consumed energy instead of food, it would cost the empire more.

What about a planet with 18 POPs?

Let's assume that the planet with 15 POPs has two tiles with 1 food (this is not unreasonable). We put a planetary capital on one tile with agrarian slaves and pitharan dust. Let's put a tier IV hydroponic farm with an agrarian slave and pitharan dust on the other tile with inherent food. Let's assume they are not adjacent, since we probably want the adjacency bonuses to be reserved for energy production. The planet also has both an orbital hydroponic farm and solar panels.

So, a hydroponic farm IV on a tile with 1 food can worked by an agrarian slave can generate 8.7 food (5 food plus 1 from the tile with pitharan dust and slavery and agrarian). The capital generates 7.25 food (4 food plus 1 from the tile with pitharan dust and slavery and agrarian). The orbital farms grant 3 food. That totals 18.95 food.

The energy cost of these buildings is 3.5 energy (orbital farm plus hydroponic farm). But we need to account for the opportunity cost of a farm replacing a power plant. A blank tile (no energy) with a power plant IV would produce 6 energy. But we would obviously also have a power hub, so let's add 20% for the power hub. So, that's 7.20 energy (assuming mediocre happiness in the range of 50-60%).

So, if we replace a power plant IV for with a hydroponic farm IV to generate food under these conditions, we end up losing out on 10.7 energy to generate enough food to feed 18 POPs. If those same POPs consumed energy, it would cost 18 energy. In this situation, food generation saves us some energy even though we have to replace a power plant with a farm.

To be clear, in many cases, food costs more energy than it saves due to opportunity costs. In many cases, you'd rather have a power plant than a farm on a planet. But this does not apply in all situations.

EDIT: I didn't even invoke all the bonuses. I could redo the math for an iron fist governor that can force slaves to generate even more food.
 

Sibericus

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Actually, I can do basic math. I'm not an idiot. And you are missing some situations where POPs using energy is inferior to POPs using food.

Let's start with this wonderful, paradise planet:

View attachment 245560
This planet, the Risa-like resort that it is, generates only 5 food to support its population. It only generates some food because I need a capital complex, and capital complexes generate more adjacency bonuses/minerals than just putting a mine there.

Thanks to slavery (none of this regulated slavery nonsense; I'm running the hardcore kind with slave processing facilities and everything), the starvation on this planet matters not at all. Who cares if the slaves starve? Worst case scenario, I have to grab a POP from a breeder world if a POP dies/goes on the Interstellar Railroad for 50 influence. If these POPs ate energy instead of food, this planet would consume 22 more energy than it does now.

Note that it is not as efficient, but I could hypothetically accept the slave penalty to energy (-33%) and starve slaves harvesting energy. I could give up all the farms on a slave-energy planet, build extra power plants, and come out a bit ahead on energy. If those slaves were instead synths who ate energy, I couldn't do that.

(This approach doesn't work with science production and labs, obviously, as the penalty for slaves doing research makes labs manned by slaves pointless.)

There are also plenty of bonuses to food production that do not depend on buildings. Slaves benefit from just being slaves (+20% to food), pitharan dust (+20%), stimulant diets (+5% repeatable), and the agrarian trait (+15% when working a food tile). (The slave processing facility adds another 10% to food, but it uses energy and takes up a tile, so it might not be the best way to generate food.) If you are running a slavery based empire with the right resources, techs, and species traits, there might be benefits to producing food in lieu of energy.

Remember that the capital is basically free food. Capitals do not cost energy, and they provide adjacency bonuses, so you really shouldn't replace them with something else (even if you don't need them to build upgraded buildings after you build the upgraded buildings). This means that the first 2-7 POPs on a planet cost food, but that the food cost is irrelevant since it is covered by the capital (depends on which capital you currently have and what food resources are on the tile the capital occupies). Remember that all the bonuses to food production can be applied to the POP farming the capital, so you can leverage the food on capital with slaves and agrarian POPs.

Let's also consider that the orbital hydroponic farm will produce 3 food for the cost of 1 energy.

So, depending on the situation, you might be able to feed a planet with up to 10 POPs for the cost of 1 energy and since you can't fill a star port with multiples of the same kind of module, that orbital hydroponics farm isn't sharing an opportunity cost with solar panels that produce 3 energy. In this situation, if the POPs consumed energy instead of food, it would cost the empire more.

What about a planet with 18 POPs?

Let's assume that the planet with 15 POPs has two tiles with 1 food (this is not unreasonable). We put a planetary capital on one tile with agrarian slaves and pitharan dust. Let's put a tier IV hydroponic farm with an agrarian slave and pitharan dust on the other tile with inherent food. Let's assume they are not adjacent, since we probably want the adjacency bonuses to be reserved for energy production. The planet also has both an orbital hydroponic farm and solar panels.

So, a hydroponic farm IV on a tile with 1 food can worked by an agrarian slave can generate 8.7 food (5 food plus 1 from the tile with pitharan dust and slavery and agrarian). The capital generates 7.25 food (4 food plus 1 from the tile with pitharan dust and slavery and agrarian). The orbital farms grant 3 food. That totals 18.95 food.

The energy cost of these buildings is 3.5 energy (orbital farm plus hydroponic farm). But we need to account for the opportunity cost of a farm replacing a power plant. A blank tile (no energy) with a power plant IV would produce 6 energy. But we would obviously also have a power hub, so let's add 20% for the power hub. So, that's 7.20 energy (assuming mediocre happiness in the range of 50-60%).

So, if we replace a power plant IV for with a hydroponic farm IV to generate food under these conditions, we end up losing out on 10.7 energy to generate enough food to feed 18 POPs. If those same POPs consumed energy, it would cost 18 energy. In this situation, food generation saves us some energy even though we have to replace a power plant with a farm.

To be clear, in many cases, food costs more energy than it saves due to opportunity costs. In many cases, you'd rather have a power plant than a farm on a planet. But this does not apply in all situations.

EDIT: I didn't even invoke all the bonuses. I could redo the math for an iron fist governor that can force slaves to generate even more food.

If you are super optimized around food, technological ascension might not be your best choice. But not every race allows slavery, not every empire can easily aquire pitharian dust, and not every race has the agrarian trait. You probably weren't notified, but in Banks, the capital will be giving energy and unity, not food. In addition, your energy equation isn't accounting for the fact that your population becomes synthetic and gets bonus energy production (+20%), cosmic ray catalysts (+5%) and the repeatable applied superconductivity (+5%). Your one power plant jumps gets close to 8-9 power depending on happiness, but the synthetic bonus applies to all power plants and is harder to account for without knowing how the empire is set up. Only materialists can undergo technological ascension, and they will be getting -10%/-20% robot maintenace for non-fanatic and fanatic respectively. Your example pops would be consuming 16.2 or 14.4 energy. There is still some energy loss, but it is far less than what you have calculated and it comes with other bonuses to minerals, science, habitability, and leadership immortality. I would make that trade off.

In some cases, technological ascension is far less efficient, but those are the cases where biological or psionic ascension or even forgoing it all together are the better choices. However, in the less extreme cases, choosing technological ascension can still be a viable choice. Don't knock it.
 
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Secret Master

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In addition, your energy equation isn't accounting for the fact that your population is now synthetic and gets bonus energy production (+20%), cosmic ray catalysts (+5%) and the repeatable applied superconductivity (+5%).

If you want to bring superconductivity into it, then we have to talk about transgenic crops (+5% to all food, repeatable like superconductivity) and stimulant diets (+5% to all food and minerals for slaves, repeatable).

The bonus energy production that synths get is slightly better than agrarian (which is only +15% instead of the +20% that synths get to energy).

If you are super optimized around food, technological ascension might not be your best choice.

Obviously.

My larger point, however, is that someone who chooses food instead of energy for POPs isn't an idiot who doesn't understand math. There are optimization paths where it doesn't make as much sense to go for synth POPs.

You probably weren't notified, but in Banks, the capital will be giving energy and unity, not food.

True.

But food is also going to be empire-level now (although I don't think we have had a DD that covers how it works yet), so there will be the possibility of agrarian worlds that are hyper-efficient at generating food (especially with either livestock species or slaves). And none of that addresses biological ascension turning POPs into "delicious" livestock for a +100% to their food value.

What I don't know is whether it will be possible to run the strategy I outlined above where I just refuse to feed slaves on a world dedicated to minerals or whatever. If food is empire level, will I have no choice but to feed my Gulag colonies?
 

Sibericus

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If you want to bring superconductivity into it, then we have to talk about transgenic crops (+5% to all food, repeatable like superconductivity) and stimulant diets (+5% to all food and minerals for slaves, repeatable).

The bonus energy production that synths get is slightly better than agrarian (which is only +15% instead of the +20% that synths get to energy).



Obviously.

My larger point, however, is that someone who chooses food instead of energy for POPs isn't an idiot who doesn't understand math. There are optimization paths where it doesn't make as much sense to go for synth POPs.



True.

But food is also going to be empire-level now (although I don't think we have had a DD that covers how it works yet), so there will be the possibility of agrarian worlds that are hyper-efficient at generating food (especially with either livestock species or slaves). And none of that addresses biological ascension turning POPs into "delicious" livestock for a +100% to their food value.

What I don't know is whether it will be possible to run the strategy I outlined above where I just refuse to feed slaves on a world dedicated to minerals or whatever. If food is empire level, will I have no choice but to feed my Gulag colonies?

Stimulant diets was in the list of techs included in your previous post. If you were going to include a repeatable tech, I was too.

Insulting the intelligence of others, not a plus for your argument.
 

Secret Master

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Stimulant diets was in the list of techs included in your previous post. If you were going to include a repeatable tech, I was too.

Actually, while I mentioned it in my post here:

There are also plenty of bonuses to food production that do not depend on buildings. Slaves benefit from just being slaves (+20% to food), pitharan dust (+20%), stimulant diets (+5% repeatable), and the agrarian trait (+15% when working a food tile).

I don't think I included it in my math here:

So, a hydroponic farm IV on a tile with 1 food can worked by an agrarian slave can generate 8.7 food (5 food plus 1 from the tile with pitharan dust and slavery and agrarian). The capital generates 7.25 food (4 food plus 1 from the tile with pitharan dust and slavery and agrarian). The orbital farms grant 3 food. That totals 18.95 food.

Of course, transgenic crops and superconductivity are basically the food and energy versions of the same tech. I don't think there's a repeatable tech for energy comparable to stimulant diets, is there? I can't think of any.

Insulting the intelligence of others, not a plus for your argument.

Wow, that escalated quickly. I suppose an honest mistake isn't something you considered before thinking I was deliberately insulting your intelligence?
 

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Actually, while I mentioned it in my post here:



I don't think I included it in my math here:



Of course, transgenic crops and superconductivity are basically the food and energy versions of the same tech. I don't think there's a repeatable tech for energy comparable to stimulant diets, is there? I can't think of any.



Wow, that escalated quickly. I suppose an honest mistake isn't something you considered before thinking I was deliberately insulting your intelligence?
Not mine, but that of others. I don't take anyone insulting anyone's intelligence lightly.
 
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Sheriff Godwin Law

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My larger point, however, is that someone who chooses food instead of energy for POPs isn't an idiot who doesn't understand math. There are optimization paths where it doesn't make as much sense to go for synth POPs.

First off, incredibly well done post. Your arguments are cogent and well put. Nothing you can say about food is going to counter the +20% science synthetics get but in a discussion of food versus energy, you make a strong case the popular wisdom could very well be wrong.

What I don't know is whether it will be possible to run the strategy I outlined above where I just refuse to feed slaves on a world dedicated to minerals or whatever. If food is empire level, will I have no choice but to feed my Gulag colonies?

I doubt it. It seems too much like an exploit.

Insulting the intelligence of others, not a plus for your argument.

He didn't insult anyone's intelligence. He was, in fact, responding to a post from Albaka that stated that anyone preferring food to energy didn't know math. Apparently Albaka didn't include all the math.
 

Secret Master

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First off, incredibly well done post. Your arguments are cogent and well put. Nothing you can say about food is going to counter the +20% science synthetics get but in a discussion of food versus energy, you make a strong case the popular wisdom could very well be wrong.

Yeah, the science buff is a whole other discussion.

One thing I will want to explore in the new DLC is whether or not the game is more or less won before we get to year 50. All the ascension in the universe might not matter as much if the moves you need to make to win efficiently need to happen long before ascension.

EDIT: Let me explain.

If you win the game in the new DLC by snowballing your empire early on, and the resources/science you conquer/assimilate/colonize is really what makes victory possible, then ascension will just be for the lulz.

It's one reason in the current version of the game I am usually more interested in techs/builds that work well at the 25-75 year mark. Sure, battleships with 5 repeatable techs are awesome, but the difference between survival and destruction often hinges on whether or not you get shield capacitors or a nice kinetic weapon earlier.

Not mine, but that of others. I don't take anyone insulting anyone's intelligence lightly.

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Promethian

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@Secret Master The slave planet trick won't work come Utopia. Food is going to become empire wide so you cannot create localized starvation anymore. If you are starving your slave planet then you are starving your research planet as well.