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AdmiralNelson

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MagisterMundi said:
By declaring you have an answer. Incidentally, you declare you have an answer to questions that are really, in reality, not questions at all, but opinions. You come off sounding like you intend to educate the ignorant masses.

That's true. I am angry. My wording is not as polite as it should be.

I apologize.

In your second paragraph, you make it abundantly clear that you believe yourself absolutely correct, hence your willingness to pursue this to the bitter end.

I may not be "right" about historical events. I'm also not posting in threads that want to add them telling people they're wasting their time because historical events are stupid.

I like big, tough enemies. Some people want blobbing to stop. I haven't told them they're wrong. I haven't told them they're stupid. I haven't told them that's not a worthy pursuit.

I haven't played a game from 1453 yet, so I have no opinion on colonization. Some people want colonization to be more like the historical pattern. I haven't told them they're wrong. I haven't told them they're stupid. I haven't told them that's not a worthy pursuit. If I find out that I don't like the way colonization works at present, I'll agree and I'll see if there are some satisfactory fixes available. If not, I'll bounce some ideas off people to see what they think.

I won't just make a thread saying "Colonization is all ahistorical and wrong."

Some people (like me) want some interface issues cleared up. I haven't told the people that think so that they're wrong. I haven't told them they're stupid.

The only thing that really offsets that is your desire to work with them, but the entirety of the rest of the post makes it seem like you intend to have them work with you on your terms.

I actually don't know what this means.
 

unmerged(4444)

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Jun 18, 2001
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AdmiralNelson said:
Yes, and I read and post there regularly. I've even posted a couple of mods. But that doesn't stop me from also trying to influence the devs (either directly or indirectly) by presenting my point of view here as well. I find your attitude, that those who disagree with you are only do-nothing whiners, a bit offensive.

But this thread is quickly going OT. :eek:o
 

dtroiani

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Let's keep this friendly and not personal... Talk about the game...
 

MagisterMundi

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AdmiralNelson said:
I actually don't know what this means.

I meant that it was posted in the same proverbial (this being a digital form of communication and all :p ) breath as the entire, "Until they agree with me or stop posting" thing.
 

MagisterMundi

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dtroiani said:
Let's keep this friendly and not personal... Talk about the game...

Aye, captain. But alas, the entire point of this thread is a discussion just like this. :) I will, however, endeavor to steer clear of personal territory.
 

AdmiralNelson

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MagisterMundi said:
In other issues, however - like events - you have been hardly tolerant, and HAVE said that people are wrong. And continue to say that they're wrong.

I don't recall doing that. (A quote from one of my posts, p'raps? Not that I really want to see it... :( ) I don't understand why people miss some of the historical events so much; a lot of events in EU2 were poorly implemented it's a good thing that they're gone.

I don't understand how a lack of events leads to a lack of historical flavor...but the "historical flavor debate" seems to be tied to many more things than events. Either way, I get all the "flavor" I need from the game at present.

I do understand that people want the AI to have certain tendencies. Stonewall's Historical Realism Project is working on it. I'm subscribed to that thread and will probably use the mod at least a little bit, if I ever play a GC with EU3. Right now, I haven't started any earlier than 1492 and mostly enjoy playing in the 17th century.

However, let me ask you: do you begrudge people with the same stance you possess on the other side of the fence? What happens if someone is filled with such undaunted conviction as yourself, but on the other side? Do you truly have no problem with them? Are you willing to accept their opinions? So far, it seems not. And of course, if this debate continues in this vein, then it will never end. Because there are others that feel just like you do who will never back down, either.

What, with another person? I don't have a problem with anybody as another person. I disagree vehemently with some opinions, but I don't hold anybody's opinions against them, unless they're truly stupid. But nobody in here has a truly stupid opinion. Or even a kinda stupid opinion. And nobody on these forums is truly stupid.

There are some kinda stupid people...but they tend to post once and only once, asking how to load troops onto ships. ;)

If I understand what you're really getting at there...I'm sure there are times when two people really can't agree or at least agree to disagree but not argue. Most of the people on these forums want EU3 to be fun. That's great. Me, too. There hasn't been any fundamental conflict that I can discern, except for those that reeeeeeeeeeeeally want historical monarchs and leaders back for the duration of the game. That's what people really do have to live with, until Paradox puts it into EU4, or devises a way to work it into EU3. Or somebody else does. Either way...complaining about it does no one any good, and annoys a bunch of people. Like me.

Edit: Please take note that I'm not singling you out. I'm simply noticing and commenting on what I perceive to be quite an unfortunate trend that yourself and many, many others besides seem to be involved in. But then, that's obviously just my opinion.

I understand. And I don't take this as a personal attack. This is nothing I didn't already know about me.
 

unmerged(67880)

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What I emboldened is what Paradox has always done. EU3 hasn't crashed yet on my computer. EU2 didn't even save out of the box.

Sadly its true that with the current state of PC games a release that doesn't crash out of the box is considered a success, so I'll reluctantly give Paradox props for at least giving us a stable product. But I still feel like that's patting a kid on the head for not missing the toilet when he takes a piss. Stability and a lack of major bugs should be a given, but of course we know it isn't. Not for any PC game.

Check out Stonewall's Historical Realism Project; there's a link in my signature. See if you can help them to work with the EU3 AI to get them to do what you want them to do.

I'll definately give it a look, thanks.

I don't need reminders that I'm playing England. I knew that already. What is going to make you feel like you're playing the country you're playing?

First, the historical events might help. I think they add a uniqueness and flavor to each individual nations. They don't have to be inevitable or game breaking, but a certain, broad sequence of events perhaps leading to the more likely historical events for that region, and perhaps a narrower set of events/decisions that lead 'possibly' to the less likely events that really happened. Also wouldn't mind having semi-scripted generals and monarchs. They don't have to die at the same time, but perhaps a semi-maintainence of plausible family trees branching from the starting point that at least gives you the chance of getting a Queen Elizabeth, or at least maintains names consistant with (or persons actually existing) in the present royal line and maybe a short description of who they are, how they got there, how they're related...rather than just names and stats. And historical generals popping up (infrequently and typically only the better ones so that it doesn't elminate the use of the 'buy a general' mechanism) based on who owns the territory where said person was born. (although that might make the larger empires unstoppable, and I think I heard that portion is hardcoded anyway).

In either case, something more than just the base factors. War of the Roses doesn't have to happen, but at least let that possibility be there. Perhaps a sequence of non-random pop up decisions which may lead to it or avoid it, or a set of parameters which do the same. Or hell, at the very least, make some stuff up. Give it an interesting description and background, rather than the same repeating generic random events with minor consequences. Secession wars, civil wars, internal strife, fracturing of large empires...these weren't terribly uncommon for alot of the big boys. They're more often the reason for the collapse of the larger Mongol-leftover empires than being chipped away by rivals, yet there's nothing I've seen that comes close to that level of consequences. If you start big, you've got to really screw up to hit a civil war or fracturing of the state.

Happened in EUII. Sucked there. Only seen it once in EUIII. Huron inherited the Iroquois.

Not as often nor as seemingly random. Sure alot of the Austrian inheretances in real history weren't exactly the most likely of outcomes, but some of them in EU3 simply defy logic. And in most cases of inheritance, the larger power typically absorbs the lesser one. Nor does such a thing inevitably lead to a true inheritance at all. As a gameplay issue, I think it happens too often, offers huge rewards for minimal effort, is unbalancing, and has few real consequences. As a historical issue, I think often occurs between states with absolutely minimal historical relationships and are unlikely to the point of (nearly) impossible.

Or maybe it was nearly as random as the real historical inheritances and myself and others just can't see them as such. Kind of like watching a sports movie where the grossly overmatched good guys come back at the absolute last second, score the winning touchdown, and win the game. Or the military good guys overcome overwhelming 10-1 odds and win the battle. If it was a story, we'd all roll our eyes and offer a 'yeah, right' to the contrived, feel good scenario. If it was based on a true story, we'd give it alot more credibility because hey, unlikely things do happen in history and those events are the ones that get turned into major stories.

I'm rambling here, so I'll cut it off.
 

unmerged(503)

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haha well said, im going to play the game now...I feel your pain though. the demo is way too short :eek: anyway time to see what my ottoman empire can do.

Sheik Yerbouti said:
Some of you guys are so ungrateful. I wish I had EUIII but I can't get it. If you "hate" the game so much return it to the shop and tell them to send it me.
 

MagisterMundi

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Enlightenmenthk said:
In either case, something more than just the base factors. War of the Roses doesn't have to happen, but at least let that possibility be there. Perhaps a sequence of non-random pop up decisions which may lead to it or avoid it, or a set of parameters which do the same.

This is why I'm a strong advocate for a HoI2-like event system. That's exactly how that event system is scripted, for the most part. If you're playing Japan, an event will pop up asking you if you want to attack Pearl Harbor, but you don't have to. As the Soviet Union, you have the option of purging your ranks of all non-Stalinists... but again, you don't have to. There are a few set events - such as the Spanish Civil War, but given the start date of the GC, this is nigh unavoidable due to the incredible tensions boiling over in Spain during '36 - but all in all, you have the option of going mostly ahistorical, mostly historical, or something in between. World War 2 is the setting, certainly, and it's evident - but World War 2 does NOT have to happen the way it did in real life, or indeed, at all in the manner we know it. In fact, one of the main complaints on the HoI boards is that it's TOO ahistorical. :D

And yes, I'll admit it - I'm a die-hard HoI fan, and am certainly biased. However, I'm a die-hard HoI fan BECAUSE of this style of events. I like being in control, and getting to choose - more or less - how historically accurate/plausible my game is going to be.
 

MagisterMundi

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AdmiralNelson said:
I don't recall doing that. (A quote from one of my posts, p'raps? Not that I really want to see it... :( )

Nah. I feel no reason to rake you over coals, nor do I feel any pressing need to make my point any further. Plus, I'm lazy, and actually looking for one of your quotes would take more time and effort than it's honestly worth. ;)
 

unmerged(67880)

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He has just highlightend one sentence, and then you blame him for not highlighting everything or at least one other sentence. Highlighting everything kind of destroys the purpose of highlighting.

He highlighted a sentence to emphasize his argument that Paradox stated all along that EU3 would be a more freeform, non-strictly historical game. A claim that was contradicted the sentence before. I criticized him for purposefully ignoring parts of the Paradox text that undermined his argument.

The game is as much as possible historically correct at any date between 1453 and 1793, that is more then EU1 and EU2 which had just a limited number of scenarios where the setup was as much as possible historically correct

No, it's really not. If you restarted 'real' history a hundred thousand times at 1453, I'd bet you 99,999 of those times Russia does not colonize the eastern Americas. At 1453 every state was not starting at the same base tech. The vast majority of the time, Mecklemberg does not become a superpower. If you took over a prosperous trading center, the rest of the merchants throughout the world aren't suddenly gonna be gunning specifically for yours. If we applied the numbers to actual history, Venice surely had a higher trade tech than 1 (which is what nearly everyone else starts with), several other nations had more or less advanced armies no doubt. The only thing it gets 'accurate' is who ruled where and who owned what on the date you started, everything else is largely random and often implausibly so.

Everything the site says is correct, but since it isn't to your liking you begin to complain that that is only true at the start, the site doesn't say anything about that.

The site said it had unparralleled historical accuracy. Since anything remotely approaching historical accuracy stops the moment you start the game, that is clearly not the case. The historical leaders and monarchs cease to exist once the first one dies, the rest are randomly generated...so the line about that was the very least misleading.

So no, everything the site said was not correct. If it wasn't patently false, than it was at the very least misleading. And its used to support an argument that we were on notice about the lack of historical events and open-endedness of the game, simply by reading that page. I think any fair reading of that passage makes it clear such an argument is unsupportable.

But thank you, for showing once again what I'm talking about when I say a lack of substantive posts and a kneejerk reliance on attacking the critic rather than actually examining his criticism. I do thank Admiral nelson for breaking that trend however. Sorry my response to his post was a bit too rambling.



Going through the last page here, great summary Merrivale, good post. I see someone else already pointed out the flaws in the post that I'm currently diasecting, thanks there. And the rest is banter between Nelson and a few others.

Think one of the major problems here is this...or variations of this.

Saying, "You are wrong about EU3. The game sucks. It's awful. It makes no sense. Your opinion sucks. Paradox sucks. Paradox tricked me and took my money. Why is this game not like the others? Why isn't history replicated? Why isn't it even kinda replicated? Where are all the events? Where are all the monarchs and leaders?" etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseam.

I know you're being slightly facetious here, but you don't think an equally ridiculous rant on the opposite side might be just as applicable, if not more so, to the 'defenders' of the game? I mean how many variations of 'You're just whining because Paradox went a different way, suck it up and deal with it!!' 'You're just whiney niche gamers, Paradox has moved on, haha!' 'Austria getting Burgundy is da stooopid!' do you think this thread has?
 

AdmiralNelson

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Enlightenmenthk said:
First, the historical events might help. I think they add a uniqueness and flavor to each individual nations. They don't have to be inevitable or game breaking, but a certain, broad sequence of events perhaps leading to the more likely historical events for that region, and perhaps a narrower set of events/decisions that lead 'possibly' to the less likely events that really happened. Also wouldn't mind having semi-scripted generals and monarchs. They don't have to die at the same time, but perhaps a semi-maintainence of plausible family trees branching from the starting point that at least gives you the chance of getting a Queen Elizabeth, or at least maintains names consistant with (or persons actually existing) in the present royal line and maybe a short description of who they are, how they got there, how they're related...rather than just names and stats. And historical generals popping up (infrequently and typically only the better ones so that it doesn't elminate the use of the 'buy a general' mechanism) based on who owns the territory where said person was born. (although that might make the larger empires unstoppable, and I think I heard that portion is hardcoded anyway).

In either case, something more than just the base factors. War of the Roses doesn't have to happen, but at least let that possibility be there. Perhaps a sequence of non-random pop up decisions which may lead to it or avoid it, or a set of parameters which do the same. Or hell, at the very least, make some stuff up. Give it an interesting description and background, rather than the same repeating generic random events with minor consequences. Secession wars, civil wars, internal strife, fracturing of large empires...these weren't terribly uncommon for alot of the big boys. They're more often the reason for the collapse of the larger Mongol-leftover empires than being chipped away by rivals, yet there's nothing I've seen that comes close to that level of consequences. If you start big, you've got to really screw up to hit a civil war or fracturing of the state.

Regarding events, somebody a few weeks back posted an idea about a Russo-Turkish War event sequence in the seventeenth century that was positively brilliant and sounds like what you'd like. Not that I wouldn't like it myself, it just doesn't bother me not having it and I know I wouldn't want to have to script it. The "Great Big Mod" or whatever it's called is going to add a bunch of events, I believe.

I can understand that you would feel cheated at not having as many events as you would like. I paid $50 for the CE and I thought I got my money's worth; if I didn't feel that way, I imagine I'd not be happy with having "wasted" my money.

(Also, I made an unnecessary remark in my original comment. My apologies, it is gone now. :( )

Monarchs and leaders: As long as Paradox doesn't limit me to waiting for good leaders, I'll be happy. I wouldn't mind seeing Nelson in-game, but I don't want to have to wait 'til the late 18th century to have a leader of his caliber. There were a number of complaints about historical monarchs/leaders and somebody even suggested a possible fix; maybe it'll be implemented in some fashion in EU4, or a patch. (I'm sure a patch would be preferable.)

Not as often nor as seemingly random. Sure alot of the Austrian inheretances in real history weren't exactly the most likely of outcomes, but some of them in EU3 simply defy logic. And in most cases of inheritance, the larger power typically absorbs the lesser one. Nor does such a thing inevitably lead to a true inheritance at all. As a gameplay issue, I think it happens too often, offers huge rewards for minimal effort, is unbalancing, and has few real consequences. As a historical issue, I think often occurs between states with absolutely minimal historical relationships and are unlikely to the point of (nearly) impossible.

No argument there. The Iroquois and the Huron didn't get along and neither were a monarchy between which there could be any semblance of a royal marraige, a prerequisite for inheritance. Here's hoping they'll fix inheritance in 1.02. Or 1.03-1.09. :)
 

AdmiralNelson

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Enlightenmenthk said:
I know you're being slightly facetious here, but you don't think an equally ridiculous rant on the opposite side might be just as applicable, if not more so, to the 'defenders' of the game? I mean how many variations of 'You're just whining because Paradox went a different way, suck it up and deal with it!!' 'You're just whiney niche gamers, Paradox has moved on, haha!' 'Austria getting Burgundy is da stooopid!' do you think this thread has?

Six? Twelve? Thirty-eight?

It's like one of those contests where you have to guess how many M&M's there are in a jar twice the size of Herman Munster's head.

;)

I understand.
 

iBaLkiD

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I know you're being slightly facetious here said:
'You're just whining because Paradox went a different way, suck it up and deal with it!!' 'You're just whiney niche gamers, Paradox has moved on, haha!' 'Austria getting Burgundy is da stooopid!'[/I] do you think this thread has?


The bottom line is that neither side should be asses. What i like most about these forums since they came into existence is how polite and friendly everyone is. When HOI2 and DOOMSDAY came out the shit hit the fan even worse. The forums were relegated to juvenile innuendoes and crass insults.

I wish i never started this thread, even though more then likely this debate/argument would have raged elsewhere. I am so in the middle of the road in regards to what is going on that i have lost my place here. I miss a lot of the historical flavor of EUII but i also am still enjoying EUIII immensely. I do look forward to seeing what mods are developed. And hope that there will be many different ways to play EUIII in the future.

I think its crazy how bent out of shape we get. In hindsight i am guilty of this as well. Some people just go off the deep end more so then others.

I think that in a way this thread has been very positive though as i know it is being read by the developers. Its got to count for something.

Ill get out of everyones way now :)
 

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MagisterMundi said:
This is why I'm a strong advocate for a HoI2-like event system. That's exactly how that event system is scripted, for the most part. If you're playing Japan, an event will pop up asking you if you want to attack Pearl Harbor, but you don't have to. As the Soviet Union, you have the option of purging your ranks of all non-Stalinists... but again, you don't have to. There are a few set events - such as the Spanish Civil War, but given the start date of the GC, this is nigh unavoidable due to the incredible tensions boiling over in Spain during '36 - but all in all, you have the option of going mostly ahistorical, mostly historical, or something in between. World War 2 is the setting, certainly, and it's evident - but World War 2 does NOT have to happen the way it did in real life, or indeed, at all in the manner we know it. In fact, one of the main complaints on the HoI boards is that it's TOO ahistorical. :D

And yes, I'll admit it - I'm a die-hard HoI fan, and am certainly biased. However, I'm a die-hard HoI fan BECAUSE of this style of events. I like being in control, and getting to choose - more or less - how historically accurate/plausible my game is going to be.

I'd be happy with the HoI2 system. :)
 

AdmiralNelson

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iBaLkiD said:
What i like most about these forums since they came into existence is how polite and friendly everyone is.

Me, too. :)

Even though I sometimes screw it up all by myself. :eek:o
 

Veldmaarschalk

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MagisterMundi said:
Alright, seriously now, the entire topic of this debate aside, comments like this only serve to agitate, which is hardly what a contentious issue like this that's already coming close to being an all-out flame-war needs. You are not making a strong point when you simply tell someone to "Live with it" - if indeed that's what Paradox wanted their official policy to be (we make a game and you either like it or don't - live with it), then this forum would never exist, and neither would the community. Whether or not I agree with the poster you were responding to, and I'll keep my own opinions to myself for the moment, he was expressing his opinion and should be able to without being told to just "live with it" and, in effect, "stop whining." If you don't want to hear people bring up their issues with this game and are tired of people "whining," then by all means don't read a thread like this. No one is forcing you to.

And not to this poster in particular, but to everyone else out there who are satisfied with the game and would like to express as much and/or debate with those dissatisfied, PLEASE try to make a constructive argument. I see a lot of blasting from that "side of the fence," as it were, on the dissatisfied players for just whining and not offering constructive criticism. The above mentality, however, is NOT constructive, and if there's anything that can destroy a valid argument entirely, it's hypocrisy (not calling you in particular a hypocrite, Veldmaarschalk, but rather just observing that a lot of these posts on both sides are fast approaching such a point).

I didn't mean to agitate anyone
 
Last edited:
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I still see no good argument on how Paradox had mislead anyone with either their website for EU 3 or their forums, on the fact that when you start a GAME it will be historically accurate until you start to play it.

I don't see a Paradox EU 3 description saying, "Historically accurate throughout the entire simulation!"

Expressing your opinion that you want the game to be something else is fine. But over and over and over again starts to seem a little self centered. Paradox does not owe you anything but continuous patch support to fix any bugs if you purchased the game. The rest is a just a bonus. There is no false advertising. The game is historically accurate during any date you choose to start, after that you are playing a strategy game.

And what is wrong with just sticking with EU 2? From time to time I like to play Command and Conquer Generals. I do not like the alien units and super unrealistic theme of the new one about to be released. So I will keep playing the old version. Should I go to EA's site and incessantly spam the fact that their new game sucks because it was not made to my exact tastes?
 

unmerged(42223)

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It is for 'hope' that we post, however I have spent the better part a week on and off looking at this and actually found myself casting back a very favorable look at Victoria_Revolutions, I especially like that map.
:D

I gave my 'two cents' I'll unsubscribe from this thread and go back to minding my own business...

:)

Although as a footnote; I will reiterate my highest Paradox desire/request/dream/or outright fantasy.

Dear Paradox could you please update HOI2_1.3a with a random map generator/editor?
:cool:
Many, many sincere thanks, gratitude, hugs, kisses, etc...
:rofl:
 

MagisterMundi

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I think the point that people are trying to make when they say that the description of the game is misleading is not so much that Paradox was lying, but rather that the description was more than a little ambiguous and vague. To be honest, if I were to go into a shop and pick up a game that declared "With [Insert game title here], you can be part of the history of the Industrial Revolution!" only to find that when I play it, it merely STARTS in the Industrial Revolution and from then could easily become a full-blown economic depression where everyone suddenly becomes agrarian again, I'd be a little bothered, too - from the description given to me, I would expect to play through the Industrial Revolution (with some obvious changes, as I'm a human being and not a textbook), not START in the Industrial Revolution and then wander off onto some strange path. If that same game, however, described itself differently - maybe something like "With [Insert title here], you can start out in the nascent Industrial Revolution - but you don't have to stay there" - I wouldn't have the same gripe.

Same goes, I think, for EU3 (though BTW, I don't actually have a gripe with the description - I just understand were others are coming from). If, perhaps, the description read, "Start in any number of deeply rendered historical settings, and from there set off to change the course of history," people might not be as bothered. *shrugs* Just a thought.
 
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