Titles: to create or not?

[unmerged(604918)]

Greetings,

I'm playing my first CK2 game as the HRE. Right now I can create and usurp a lot of titles, however it's not clear to me what are the pros and cons of creating titles. Could someone explain it to me?

Thanks

 

[Hackworthy]

Usurping titles pisses off the owner but can give you claims, creating titles will make anyone under that title want it but will give prestige and even claims if you don't control any part of it. You really just have to weigh the risk/reward ratio for creating a title and even consider bestowing on a vassal to both help ensure their loyalty and centralize your administration.

 

[l3ol3o]

First what are your goals for this game? Does the score matter to you? If you care about scores then you should create titles. They will give you more prestige every month. Your Dynasty Score will also increase giving you the ability to make better marriages. The scores don't really affect the game though. I like them because it gives me something to work for.

Sometimes I just like to role play and gather as many titles as I can.

If you don't care about the scores or roleplaying though it is normally easier NOT to create titles. Here is why. Lets say your the Emperor of the HRE. Right now you should only have Dukes under you. Some of the Dukes may form Kingdoms. Kings want to become Emperor and you will get a -20 opinion modifier. Duke's want to become Kings. If you create the Kingdom of Germany all the Dukes in Germany will now get a -20 modifier. The same is true for Counts. If you create a Duchy the Counts in that Duchy will want the title and you will get a -20 opinion modifier.

Also keep in mind that you can only have 2 Duchies before your vassals get jealous and give you - opinion modifiers.

 

[Dayman]

In my current BYZ game I don't notice a malus in opinion by my Despots (Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Anatolia, Taurica, Sicily, Armenia, and Georgia) related to anything other than crown laws. I make sure they own their de jure lands however, and no more or less.

 

[Jak9090]

depends on who you are, if im england i destroy all duke titles and have only counts, because england is a rather easy realm to manage in this way, if i am the seljuks though i will have only emirs as my direct vassals, so in short, either destroy or give away titles, keeping them for yourself achieves nothing if you're at emperor or king level already...however as a duke that's a different story, as a duke create as many titles as you can.

 

[Mutineer]

I tend to create a title only when I need to. When I useally need to? In order to prevent faction revolts. You see count leader of dangerous faction - you create ducky and give it to someboudy you like you best. sudddenly that count is no longer your vassal, so he can not be member of faction which is agains you.

 

[yezhanquan]

Careful creation and distribution of titles is a rather important (and fun) way of keeping your realm stable. Balkanise your vassals by awarding them duchy titles, but the counties under said duchies belong to someone else (just not yourself). If your vassals are fighting each other, it means that they are not fighting you.

 

[unmerged(489981)]

Never, ever create duchies unless it will allow you to conquer enemy land.

 

[yezhanquan]

Never, ever create duchies unless it will allow you to conquer enemy land.

This is true if you allow a few individuals to hold many duchy AND county titles. But, like I said, let your vassals squabble over the control of counties.

 

[Comradebot]

Never, ever create duchies unless it will allow you to conquer enemy land.

And have even more vassals to manage and try to keep out of factions? Pass.

 

[Accrsd]

And have even more vassals to manage and try to keep out of factions? Pass.

i actually find it more easy to deal with a faction that is a collection of single counties then one that is made up of three or four dukes. Since even with high opinion dukes will still find something to rebel about. I also agree with the quoted post. If you can form a kingdom with just two duchies then you should do everything in your power to ensure you do just that. There's many benefits to both sides of this coin, where single county counts are easier to impose your will upon the super dukes are more well equipped to expand your realm on their own. However i'll stay with my decentralized mess that earns more tax income, more numerous realm levies, and a tendency to allow you access to a greater pool of powerfull characters as councilors.

 

[Mutineer]

I am sorry, but afetr some strategy this become no fun. Even raising levies - so many clicks.

I actually prefur even to give away small-medium kingdoms in empire - then two click and 20K army and ships ready to go whenever you want. Want to put down rebelious peasants? One click in county and king levies figth rebels.
Nax I can list many benefits of having vassals on my vassal thin, but I allready did that in orher posts.

 

[delling]

I often create ducal titles and hand out to loyalists, preferably those without *any* claims. eventually they won't be loyal anymore, but that's part of the game to me. Kingdoms I create and keep for myself (I usually doesn't play as emperor, if I did I might hand out a few small kingdoms). Never hand a duchy to someone who might get a claim on the kingdom and be wary of all relatives. If I find out that someone tries to plot for a claim somewhere I tell them to end plot. If they are after one of my titles I toss them in prison to consider what they've done. (Recently, for roleplay purposes, I decided on fixed sentences for different crimes. 10-20 years for first strike plotting against me.)

Recently I've played with medium CA, that means the vassals are busy fighting each other, I also plot to revoke titles every chance I get (when I'm not busy killing babies to get more titles). Revoking titles to me is an important part of avoiding superdukes. (They are welcome to kill each other - but not anyone in my court or of my blood.)

 

[yezhanquan]

I often create ducal titles and hand out to loyalists, preferably those without *any* claims. eventually they won't be loyal anymore, but that's part of the game to me. Kingdoms I create and keep for myself (I usually doesn't play as emperor, if I did I might hand out a few small kingdoms). Never hand a duchy to someone who might get a claim on the kingdom and be wary of all relatives. If I find out that someone tries to plot for a claim somewhere I tell them to end plot. If they are after one of my titles I toss them in prison to consider what they've done. (Recently, for roleplay purposes, I decided on fixed sentences for different crimes. 10-20 years for first strike plotting against me.)


Recently I've played with medium CA, that means the vassals are busy fighting each other, I also plot to revoke titles every chance I get (when I'm not busy killing babies to get more titles). Revoking titles to me is an important part of avoiding superdukes. (They are welcome to kill each other - but not anyone in my court or of my blood.)

In my England game (starting 1187), had a Kinslayer clansman who is a relatively powerful duke. But yeah, if I can't persuade someone to stop the plot, it's time for a dungeon tour.

 

[Carmilla]

Usually I'll create all the kingdom titles that I can if I happen to be an empress. Then divide it amongst my vassals while making sure there's some set up for them to start fighting amongst themselves enough so that they never have the strength needed to oppose me. Of course I stopped doing this after I discovered the De Jure drift bug for kingdoms in 1.08 and have stuck with duchies instead. Ironically I think they're fight even more now than they used to.

 

[MasterOfGrey]

Alternatively, breed and educate all potential heirs for good traits and high diplomacy and then you can create and hand out all the titles you want and you don't need to worry about keeping your vassals busy fighting each other. In my recent game where I've become Emperor of Hispania I've had precisely 1 faction revolt for lower crown authority, and it was by super-dukes that I'd deliberately created in preparation for setting up a couple of kings. it was put down rather swiftly... That's 1 revolt in 130 years.

If all your characters and potential heirs are well liked, having your vassals all set up neatly makes the realm more powerful long-term. (One of my kings was a homosexual who insulted 1 of the super dukes via event before ascending the throne and even with those and short reign he still only has that 1 faction form, and it only ever got 2 members of the 10 dukes in the realm at that time...)

 

[yezhanquan]

Well, I must say that my "divide-and-rule" was not very deliberate. But, I'm running the Project Balance mod. To be honest, I'm not a very hands-on liege =X.

 

[Dayman]

I create duchies and kingdoms because it makes sense. Especially in an empire, I'm not going to manage 400 counts on my own. Hell, I'm not going to manage 80 dukes on my own. I don't min-max, I roleplay my character and try to efficiently administer my realm according to their traits.

I've never worried about rebellion. So be it, rebel and face the consequences. Ruling a realm for 200 years and not having any rebellions in unrealistic, especially if it's using a game mechanics to most efficiently blob up. I even limit myself to one fabricated claim per character.

 

[Malibu Stacey]

Personally as a King or Emperor, I don't create Duchies unless there is a specific need for it (de jure casus belli mostly) and I destroy as many as I can (anything with 3 or more de jure counties). Easier to deal with factions when it's mostly counts rather than dukes and easier to keep your counts balkanized since you'll be able to revoke titles using plots. You also get more income as there's no duke in the middle taking his chunk (10% of 3 or 4 counts income is a lot more than 10% of one dukes income).
Bear in mind if you hold a Duchy title, all counts whom are de jure vassals of that duchy will want the title. Same goes for any Kingdoms which aren't your primary title but it'll be the dukes who covet it. Counts will not covet Kingdoms & dukes will not covet Empires.

Actually thinking about this, it might be a good idea to destroy Kingdom titles beyond your primary title once you control all the de jure lands within the Kingdom too if there are duchies in it you can't destroy (e.g. Ireland with the 2 county duchies of Leinster, Connacht and Meath or Lithuania with Courland, Polotsk and Samogitia).

 

[unmerged(604918)]

Thanks everybody. I realize now that's not a simple question and depends very much on the play style. My main concern is stability. It seems to me that if one want to deal militarily with rebels having only counts as vassals would be better, but to influence them trough diplomacy, probably having fewer and more powerful vassals would be a better option. I might try both approaches in future games, because right now my empire is as mess. There are some very powerful kings and dukes and a lot of lonesome counts scattered around. I thought creating more duchies could balance the power of my vassals, but they might just get absorbed by the bigger ones as well.

I have some more questions:

Only emperors can create kingdoms and only kings can create duchies? Or a powerful enough duke/count can create a kingdom/duchy?

If I create a duchy and give it to a count who is a direct vassal of (let's say) the king of Sicily (who's my vassal), the duke would still be a direct vassal of the king of Sicily? And what happens if I give him a kingdom instead of a duchy?

I have usurped the kingdom of France and the kingdom of Aquitaine, if I give the titles away would those kingdoms become independents or would they be my vassals?