As i ve said in a previous post i would like to see an event in which some bankrupt ruler has the option to sell one of his titles or claims to someone else in order to pay for his debts... Or some rich courtier or Count/Duke offers to buy a title from someone else... This was a practice that happened quite frequently in middle ages...
Title selling?
- Thread starter Don_giorgio
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I agree, titles and claims were sold; but sometimes claims were also sold, because the original claimant didn't have the means to pursue the claim and the buyer was really interested in that area.
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It definitely happened historically (Richard I dealing with Philippe II Augustus comes to mind), but my question is how do you represent this in the game other than by random event (which would be too random I think)?
Well i was thinking that the event could fire if there were some criteria matched... like Ruler is bankrupt, pressure from liege or someone else to hand over the title or a giving it to someone with a title with no land like a King who just lost his last province (for a fee of course). As i said above this happened frequently in Middle Ages... Like Andreas Palaiologos selling his titular Emperor of Constantinople to Charles VIII and after that to Ferdinand I or Richard I selling Cyprus to Templars who they resold it to Guy de Lusignan who had just been kicked off the Holy Lands...
The example I was thinking about was the battle of Worringen, which was about the succession in the duchy of Limburg(just like the duchy of Brabant they claimed the old duke of Lower Lotharingia title). Originally the count of Gelre and the count of Berg had the best claim, but the count of Berg couldn't assert his claim and sold his claim to duke Jan (=John) of Brabant, who originally had a weaker claim. The battle resulted in victory for Brabant and afterwards Brabant (and Lothier) and Limburg were kept in a personal union.
Regarding the representation, this claims could be offered to neighbouring nobles and/or the chancellor/spymaster could make recommendations for potential buyers. OTOH any potential buyer could use the chancellor/spymaster to find a potential seller and/or maybe a rumour spreads.
Regarding the representation, this claims could be offered to neighbouring nobles and/or the chancellor/spymaster could make recommendations for potential buyers. OTOH any potential buyer could use the chancellor/spymaster to find a potential seller and/or maybe a rumour spreads.
I think it could work like province selling in EUIII does: you click a button on the diplomacy page, and a list drops down of eligible buyers (a la marriage in CK1) then you choose one and you sell it to them. No randomness involved.
I was assuming that it would not be a feature included in vanilla, and we would have to mod around it if we wanted to be able to do it. But, yeah, that would be the easiest option.
Or, rather, it could be made as a diplomatic offer, either by the prospective buyer or seller. Sales where the sold title still remains in vassalage to you, and sales where a title goes to an entirely different realm (or one which becomes independent at the purchase) should both be in, though the latter should be a lot more expensive.
Selling claims would be very cool.
Title also by the way (and this option exists in EU3)
Title also by the way (and this option exists in EU3)
Actually after the count of Gelre who was originally recognised as duke (before it became known that his wife the heiress of Limburg was dying without child) the best claim was Gerard of Durbuy's who after Gelre's wife was the closests living relative of the last duke of Limburg. Then came the counts of Berg, Luxembourg and Laroche (Ligny) (equally close relatives in the paternal line). Before Berg sold his claim, Brabant had no claim to Limburg (though of course the houses of Brabant and of Limbourg, as well as the arch-bishops of Cologne and probably the bishops of Liège had long claimed Lower Lorraine)...
But yes, titles and claims should be sellable, also mortgageable which was a wide spread practice...
That is a good idea: you could buy out the other pretenders to the throne and form alliances with them. In an elective system, this might work well to your advantage, in order to shore up your favored candidate's chances.
Sounds like a nice idea
Sometimes in CK1 when you were really deep in debt after a long war, something like this would have given you a fun option to raise money.
Sometimes in CK1 when you were really deep in debt after a long war, something like this would have given you a fun option to raise money.
I think this option would be highly exploitable by the player against the AI. For example sell a duchy title, hold lands, unsurp title-->casus belli against anyone. We would need severe penalty at least for this option, loss of prestige, piety, negative traits for your character etc.
There's been no confirmation of whether you can grab titles any more. Personally, I hope not.
Me2 but claim selling must be included in the game... If a ruler has lost his title and is exiled and impoverished i would love to buy his claim and enforce it for my own benefit...
Yes, but instead there could be a forge claim and/or some events and time before a new owner, in case of conquest and/or dubious claim, gets recognized.
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maybe only land selling would solve this issue. the new owner will have full rights on his new county but no right or claim on superior title attached to these lands.
Well unless they already had a (pressed) claim on those titles; if that is not the case, then gaining any claim on these superior titles should at least for period be restricted to legal inheritance (of claim or land) only. So no grabbing, usurping or fabricating (If this is possible in CK2) claims for a defined period.
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Well naturally a lord would only "sell" a barony to a vassal whom he trusts. Not to a foreigner. And he'd only do it if he is *really* strapped for cash, and if the vassal *really* offers top dollar for it.
A lord is already free to bestow titles upon a vassal for loyal service, or just because he feels like it. Why not allow a vassal to try and initiate this from his side?