Title loss of demesne even WITH primogeniture

[Lacessit]

Hi people,

Recently picked up my CKII playthrough again and something weird happened. I am king of Ireland, Scotland and Wales (with various scattered territories in France and Lithuania) and have my demesne in the British Isles. All of the succession laws of the three kingdoms (where, as said, all of my demesne is situated) are agnatic-cognatic primogeniture. I have no sons, but 4 daughters. My heir and eldest daughter is perfectly on course to inherit the three kingdoms, but apparantly all of my lower titles (two duchies and 9 earldoms) go to my other daughter, who is married to some Byzantine lord.

What?

Any hints?

 

[RustyTurban]

Sounds like a bug. Even if you did have funny succession laws etc that still shouldn't be happening.

 

[Yxklyx]

Sounds like a bug to me too - that said does your second daughter have a son and your first one not? In this game, a daughter with a son will inherit before a daughter without - regardless of their order of birth (it's even in one of the game startup tips). Could be a bug related to this.

Also, what are the succession laws of your lower titles?

Also, what is your CA at in all the Kingdoms and Duchies?

 

[Damorte]

My guess is that this is probably caused by having different succession laws in your kingdoms.

edit: sorry misread the post and dint see the part where you said it all have the same succession laws :wub:

 

[Westernesse]

Could be a bug, but I know sometimes I've had duchies or counties that were gravelkind and outside of my primogenture kingdoms and they get granted to someone else. I don't think this is a bug as if the Duchy of Pisa is gravelkind and is inside the kingdom of Italy de jure (which hasn't been formed) then its inheritance laws will follow gravelkind even if your King of France with primogenture. Just like how you'd lose a kingdom if it was on gravelkind, but the rest of your kingdoms were on primogenture.

 

[Yxklyx]

I'm going to guess that your non-eldest daughter does have a son and your eldest does not - that would explain why the Duchies and Counties are going to the one with a son.

As for the Kingdoms there is something funny about them and getting absorbed into Empires which could explain this. I don't know if this is a bug or some insidious WAD. I've read one post saying that when an Empire pressed a vassal's Kingdom claim (Kingdom was a not De Jure part of Empire) the Kingdom remained independent. Also, in the Quick Questions thread just now someone mentions a vassal inside the HRE inheriting Kingdom (not De Jure of HRE) and becoming independent of the HRE.

 

[Lacessit]

Hi guys.

Both of those daughters had sons, but the son of the eldest is the independent king of Anatolia. I made him that after a succesful crusade. Sort of to groom him for the throne of the irish empire and all that.
And I DO think the 'loss of title' icon dropped when my second daughter had a son. I had her and her son assasinated meanwhile so in my game the question is moot, but it still sounds a bit like a bug...

EDIT: the second daughter had two sons btw, so why didn't he show up in the line of succession if his elder brother did?

 

[Yxklyx]

Hi guys.

Both of those daughters had sons, but the son of the eldest is the independent king of Anatolia. I made him that after a succesful crusade. Sort of to groom him for the throne of the irish empire and all that.
And I DO think the 'loss of title' icon dropped when my second daughter had a son. I had her and her son assasinated meanwhile so in my game the question is moot, but it still sounds a bit like a bug...

EDIT: the second daughter had two sons btw, so why didn't he show up in the line of succession if his elder brother did?

What is the CA of your Kingdoms? If it's High then that explains why the duchies/counties are going to someone other than your eldest son (he is the ruler of a separate realm and that is precisely what High CA prevents). The kingdoms still go to the eldest though. A Kingdom's CA only affects Duchies/Counties within it - not the Kingdoms themselves. Same idea with an Empire's CA.

 

[Lacessit]

What is the CA of your Kingdoms? If it's High then that explains why the duchies/counties are going to someone other than your eldest son (he is the ruler of a separate realm and that is precisely what High CA prevents). The kingdoms still go to the eldest though. A Kingdom's CA only affects Duchies/Counties within it - not the Kingdoms themselves. Same idea with an Empire's CA.

CA is High indeed. But shouldn't that make the inheritance revert to his mother, the eldest daughter? Instead of to the second eldest? Because it was my second eldest daughter, not my grandson by her, who showed up in the succession...

Maybe I should take a screenie of the family tree to explain this more graphically... I'll do that tomorrow!

 

[Bigheeed]

Sounds like its working as designed, set your CA to Medium and make sure all your laws are Ag/Cog Primo as if its male only that also causes issues with it skipping straight to the grandkids.
That should align everything with your eldest daughter son and your vassals will love you for dropping CA. I've still never raised my CA above medium in a game as I've never seen the need or benefit.

 

[RustyTurban]

So High CA is preventing the entire realm from being inherited by another, as oppose to just parts leaving the realm. This still isn't actually WAD.

 

[Yxklyx]

CA is High indeed. But shouldn't that make the inheritance revert to his mother, the eldest daughter? Instead of to the second eldest? Because it was my second eldest daughter, not my grandson by her, who showed up in the succession...

Maybe I should take a screenie of the family tree to explain this more graphically... I'll do that tomorrow!

No, it looks right to me and working as designed. Because of high CA your eldest daughter's son (who is in another realm) is excluded from inheriting any duchies and counties within that Kingdom. Since you have another grandson who is within the realm, these titles then go to his mother. It makes sense to me. The Kingdom titles though aren't affected by high CA in this case so pass on to the eldest daughter since she has a son.

 

[Yxklyx]

So High CA is preventing the entire realm from being inherited by another, as oppose to just parts leaving the realm. This still isn't actually WAD.

No, I'm pretty sure it's WAD. High Kingdom CA only prevents Duchy/County titles from leaving the realm. The Kingdom titles are going to the essentially foreign son in his different realm while the other titles stay within the realm. Of course the current realm is being diminished greatly because it's losing all the associated Kingdom titles. It might be easier to think of if you replace "realm" with "family branch".

 

[Lacessit]

I'm not sure if it's entirely WAD, because you have to keep into account that the second daughter and grandson are NOT in my realm either. In fact the second grandson is not even of my dynasty.

To make it all a bit more visual: the family tree. Old Mael Iosa and his 4 daughters.

View attachment

Keep in mind, Aine is in my court, matrilineally married to some Swede. Her (Sithrigi, my dynasty) son is King of Anatolia and apparantly technically a foreigner. Bebin is married to the Basileus of Byzantium. Bebin is apparantly the heir of all my demesne. NOT the kingdoms, those still go to Aine.

Discuss

 

[Yxklyx]

I'm not sure if it's entirely WAD, because you have to keep into account that the second daughter and grandson are NOT in my realm either. In fact the second grandson is not even of my dynasty.

To make it all a bit more visual: the family tree. Old Mael Iosa and his 4 daughters.

View attachment 67596

Keep in mind, Aine is in my court, matrilineally married to some Swede. Her (Sithrigi, my dynasty) son is King of Anatolia and apparantly technically a foreigner. Bebin is married to the Basileus of Byzantium. Bebin is apparantly the heir of all my demesne. NOT the kingdoms, those still go to Aine.

Discuss

Still looks WAD to me. When your King dies Bebin will control all the duchies and counties independently while Aine will hold all the Kingdom titles and all counties that Bebin doesn't get. Aine might be able to vassalize Bebin.

 

[Lacessit]

Fair enough. I had both Bebin and her son assasinated meanwhile, so it doens't really matter anymore. Thanks for the insights, you learn something every day!

 

[Yxklyx]

Note that Bebin wasn't a vassal of Basileus so if she inherits any land she becomes independent of him.

I agree though that even though it's WAD I think it's poor design. They should probably add a rule that says that CA is ignored for the inheritor of a King title. I don't know where we would request this.