Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, and Graf Spee

[perujuan]

I believe all would agree that these 2 battleships and this 1 pocket battleship were significant assets in WWII and would really be cool to have in game. I just don't think the German player really can put effort into building these 3 ships by September 39 given to what I saw in WWW. So what I'm proposing and hope to see is have a national focus to give Germany these ships when tensions break out or shortly afterwards. It still would be a far cry to counter the Royal Navy. It would be historically accurate and just be very cool. Obviously I play Germany and look forward to doing so in HOI IV.

I know some of you will just say Mod, but it would really be cool to see in original build. But if Mod is the final answer: which or who of you modders out there focus on historical details like this? I was really a fan of Black ICE.

 

[electriccat]

It would be interesting to see if they are in the 1939 bookmark.

 

[tommylotto]

If you want your Germany to have those ships -- then build them. No one is stopping you. In fact, with the separation of military factories and ship yards, there is no reason for you not to build some kind of ships. Otherwise, your ship yards would sit idle. You might as well put them to work.

 

[jcd000]

Giving ships for free to the player is not that good for the game.
Making it so that he can build them if he wishes and goes historical is better.

Having dockyards only able to build ships ensures that the German player can build them. If he does not go all sub.. Or researches the SHBB's focuses on navy.
Choices..

 

[lahvan]

It might be possible to edit national focus for that... should not be that hard with tools given by devs...

 

[LordOfWar16]

How about just building them?

Keep in mind that all national focus trees include focuses that allow you to research stuff ahead of time or faster. The PzIII for example gets an -100% ahead of time penalty bonus if you do the NAP with the Soviet Union, which lets you research it 1 year earlier without penalties. Same goes for ship technolgies if you do the naval focuses of course. Other Focuses might grant you 50% research speed bonuses aswell.

 

[perujuan]

Build them myself seems to be the consensus, but what I was trying to say in the beginning is I don't think there's enough balance to get these ships in time in a historically accurate perspective. As Germany I obviously will focus on Army first, Luftwaffe second, and Navy third. Obviously yes I will try and get battleships or a strong navy to do things like invade Norway, but I just don't see that happening with 10 dockyards and like 8 oil max to start out with. I have to keep priority on Army and Luftwaffe over my shipbuilding. So back to my point, just hope there is a national focus to get these historic ships. Really don't think it would be hard to do either like one of you said, and it won't significantly effect the balance that the Royal Navy still has naval domination. Thanks for replies though ladies and gents

 

[jalapen0]

I hate getting stuff for free in this game. Just build them. If you don't have enough capacity then build more capacity. No one is stopping you from that.

 

[Dievs]

If you make ahistorical choices, you should not expect historical results - not investing the actual resources to your navy should result in weaker navy than historically happened.

Alternatively, a historically-oriented mod that would give Germany Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, and Graf Spee at the appropriate date should also remove ("lock") an appropriate amount of factories and the scarce oil resources, even if the player would wish to "focus on Army first, Luftwaffe second, and Navy third".

I mean, the game can either provide a player with the choice to postpone a naval buildup to divert resources for other needs (as seems to be the current design decision) or forbid that choice - but enabling that choice but removing its proper consequences would be just silly.

 

[PlacidDragon]

I believe all would agree that these 2 battleships and this 1 pocket battleship were significant assets in WWII and would really be cool to have in game. I just don't think the German player really can put effort into building these 3 ships by September 39 given to what I saw in WWW. So what I'm proposing and hope to see is have a national focus to give Germany these ships when tensions break out or shortly afterwards. It still would be a far cry to counter the Royal Navy. It would be historically accurate and just be very cool. Obviously I play Germany and look forward to doing so in HOI IV.

I know some of you will just say Mod, but it would really be cool to see in original build. But if Mod is the final answer: which or who of you modders out there focus on historical details like this? I was really a fan of Black ICE.

Germany didn't just build those 3

The Tirpitz had a more famous sister, Bismarck, work on both started in 1936 (Bismarck was finished in 1940, Tirpitz in 1941).
Like above, the Scharnhorst had the sister ship Gneisenau (both started on in 1935 and finished in 1939).
The Graf Spee was one of a trio of ships (the others being Admiral Sheer and Deutschland (later renamed Lützov for political reasons)). These were build before the 1936 game start.
Germany also built 3 more modern Heavy Cruisers in the relevant time period (Hipper, Blücher and Prinz Eugen), as well as numerous smaller vessels.

So Germany had a very ambitious naval building program. If you as a player want to emulate that, it should not be a problem. You might have to build some more naval dockyards to push them all out in time, i couldn't say. Or you can drop it in favor of more armor divisions, aircraft, etc. That choice is yours. But there is no way anyone should be getting anything "for free" as such (in my opinion at least).

If you want it, build it. If you dont, build something else.

 

[Cpt Crash]

Having the Tirpitz available by September '39 would be a gross distortion of reality. Although completed by early 1941 it was not ready for action until late 1941.

Gaining capital ships by a "focus" would not really help make the game better.

 

[Denkt]

With 15 dockyards and all needed resources you can build a battleship in less then a year.
Germany can very well build 4 battleships between 1936-1941 without that much effort.

 

[Axe99]

As others have said, it seems odd to give Germany ships in a focus. Should we give the UK 300 (or however many it was) Spitfires in May 1940 to make sure they've got enough for the Battle of Britain, or start gifting the USSR T-34s from 1941 to make sure they've got enough for the Winter Offensive? Placid Dragon did a great job of outlining Germany's historical build program, and given ships in HoI4 look like they'll be able to be built far faster than IRL, plus Germany usually gets a bit of a buff in the HoI series to make it a bit more of a long-term contest than it was historically, I can't imagine it would be a problem. Of course, if you really want them in, I'm sure you could put in an event or the like to make them pop out, so it will be possible (and I think if someone wants it and it's in a mod, it's a good thing ), but I'd be saddened to see magically appearing units in the base game.

 

[Fulmen]

I just don't think the German player really can put effort into building these 3 ships by September 39 given to what I saw in WWW.

In past HoIs even if you went wildly ahistorical as Germany and spammed industry to rival that of the US, you still wouldn't be able to build all the stuff that Germany built IRL in 1936-39 (and beyond).

The same problem is even more apparent with countries like Russia and USA.

Production has never really been one of HoI's strong points, which is a little weird considering how much of a core aspect it is to the game. But I guess that's what happens when you abstract all kinds of different production facilities into one single type of currency (IC).

Nonetheless, I think that HoI4's addition of dockyards and a clear division of IC into military and civilian factories are significant improvements to the genre.

 

[SaydaNeen]

if i remember correctly there was a naval focus tree to choose, Daniel didnt pick it because it wasnt strategic when Johann and US dominated the seas.in the earlier WWW

 

[Invictus5966]

Didn't Daniel also have issues with Oil?

 

[TheOrangeGuy]

Giving ships for free to the player is not that good for the game.
Making it so that he can build them if he wishes and goes historical is better.

Having dockyards only able to build ships ensures that the German player can build them. If he does not go all sub.. Or researches the SHBB's focuses on navy.
Choices..

Depends if Germany have enough dockyard to actually do it in time though

 

[Praetonia]

The three Deutschland class cruisers, of which Graf Spee was one, were all complete by 1936. Graf Spee was the last to commission and did so on 6th January 1936. So for 1936 start you should have Deutschland and Scheer in the water already and Graf Spee 99% complete in the build queue.

The two Scharnhorst class battleships were laid down in 1935 so they should also be in the build queue.

The two Bismarck class battleships were both laid down in 1936, so the player gets the choice. Obviously knowing that a land war is coming, the optimum choice is to not build them, or at least not devote any industry to doing so that could instead be used for the land build up. Whether you choose to go historic or optimise your build with hindsight is a choice for the player. Similar choices exist for other countries: a UK player optimally should lay down aircraft carriers instead of the five King George V class battleships that the UK historically started building in 1936 and 1937. Your choice.

 

[Commissar Yossarian]

This should be less of a problem for you once the nice people of this community mod the game to retune things including fuel and energy etc.
This will split out the steel which you need (and energy and other metals et al.) to build from the oil/fuel you need to run things.

This will allow Germany and other nations to produce based on production capacity and fight on supply capacity.

 

[GermanPower]

Who's making BBs anyways. I'm all about tons of carriers. #Carriers4life