Tired of fantasy duchies…

[unmerged(37774)]

example = the king of France grants a dukal title "duke of Flanders" to the count of Brugge. Granting that kind of title should only be allowed in their "core fief" - linking up the already present vassals to that title. So the count of Ypres will become vassal to the duke of Flanders - formerly know as the count of Brugge.

other example = the duke of Flanders inherits a rich fief in Italy. Should it be forbidden to move his capital? I don't know?

So basicly there are 2 questions =

1) do we implement the requirement for vassals to hold a count title in the area of the granted dukal title?

This sounds good, but one things occurs to me that I've seen in game.

You become a King. You get as a vassal a couple of dukes that between them own all four of the provinces in a third duchy, say two provinces each, each held by count vassals of these dukes. You can claim that third duchy since your vassals control all of its territory.

With the suggested change though, you could not then ever hand out that title, well, unless you revoked a horde of titles...

So, if we do allow this kind of change, and it does seem to make sense, perhaps we should also allow a King to give titles to his vassals' vassals.

 

[ulmont]

You get as a vassal a couple of dukes that between them own all four of the provinces in a third duchy, say two provinces each, each held by count vassals of these dukes. You can claim that third duchy since your vassals control all of its territory.

With the suggested change though, you could not then ever hand out that title, well, unless you revoked a horde of titles...

Another annoyance is that if you have a duke vassal in existence, and then you later pick up more vassals in that duchy, there is no way to get the counties underneath the duke without revoking every one of the county titles and granting them to the duke.

So there ought to be a way to hand a county over to the associated duke...

-Richard Campbell.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

In the late 13th century the Duke of Anjou was based in Sicily, invaded Byzantine territory and my mind is a bit fuzzy on this but he also had something to do with the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

Yes but he still had land in Anjou. In this game it is posibble to give out titles to people who have no connection with the title's demense. So it's posibble to give out a title to a man who owns only counties in Palestine and nothing in Anjou. Thats the problem and that is what I am talking about.
I have nothing against people having titles in totally different part of the map while he still has vassals or own counties in the mentioned demense.

 

[ulmont]

So it's posibble to give out a title to a man who owns only counties in Palestine and nothing in Anjou. Thats the problem and that is what I am talking about.

I still haven't heard any explanation for why I am stuck with the default duchal titles, ranging from 1 province to 7 provinces, and I can't combine some of the 1-province duchies into 2 or 3 provinces and split some of the 5-7 province duchies into 2 or 3. Not like in 1066 all this was set in stone forever...

-Richard Campbell.

 

[Grell74]

Nice job Mr T, I cant wait for 1.05.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

I still haven't heard any explanation for why I am stuck with the default duchal titles, ranging from 1 province to 7 provinces, and I can't combine some of the 1-province duchies into 2 or 3 provinces and split some of the 5-7 province duchies into 2 or 3. Not like in 1066 all this was set in stone forever...

It seems you don't quite understand what I am talking about, ah well... o

 

[ulmont]

It seems you don't quite understand what I am talking about

I understand. You don't like that the Duke of Essex can be ruling the provinces of, say, Fes and El Rif, and no others.

What I'm saying is that I don't like that the Duchy of Essex is 1 province big and the Duchy of Constantine 6, and the Duchy of Alger 7. Right now, the best I can do to get things the way I want them (around 3-province duchies) is to take smaller ones, like Essex, and give them out in overlapping areas of the larger ones, like Alger.

And I haven't seen any reason why a strong Crusading King could not have redrawn some of the ducal borders over 400 years...

-Richard Campbell.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

I understand. You don't like that the Duke of Essex can be ruling the provinces of, say, Fes and El Rif, and no others.

Obviously you don't understand. I said just the opposite.

What I'm saying is that I don't like that the Duchy of Essex is 1 province big and the Duchy of Constantine 6, and the Duchy of Alger 7. Right now, the best I can do to get things the way I want them (around 3-province duchies) is to take smaller ones, like Essex, and give them out in overlapping areas of the larger ones, like Alger.

And I haven't seen any reason why a strong Crusading King could not have redrawn some of the ducal borders over 400 years...

Again...you don't undestand what I was talking about. As now you are able to give out Duchy titles to any Count even if he holds a county in Palestine and has no connection to demense teritory of Duchy of Cornwall he is able to assume position of Duke of Cornwall. What I am saying is that it should be made that if one doesn't hold at least one county in Cornwall demense he cannot be a Duke of Cornwall. So while his capital may be in Palestine he would still be able to be a Duke of Cornwall if he has at least one county in Cornwall demese.

Please read carefully what I am saying...

 

[Zander]

He understands, he was just raising a completely separate point: that he wishes the list of Duchies in the game as a whole was less fixed.

 

[ulmont]

I said just the opposite.

You did not. Look at your Duke of Cornwall with only counties in Palestine - that's my Duke of Essex with only Fes (Fes) and El Rif (El Rif).

What I am saying is that it should be made that if one doesn't hold at least one county in Cornwall demense he cannot be a Duke of Cornwall.

And I think that's a horrible idea, because it would stop me from shifting around the borders of the duchies.

Please read carefully what I am saying...

I am reading you carefully enough to understand what you are saying, but you are not doing the same.

-Richard Campbell.

 

[ulmont]

He understands, he was just raising a completely separate point: that he wishes the list of Duchies in the game as a whole was less fixed.

I don't think the points are completely separate. Right now, I can somewhat compensate for fixed Duchies by giving the titles out in an ahistorical manner. If I am locked down to only giving Duchies to people in the "historical" manner (again, what history has to do with a Count of Salerno that has conquered North Africa is open to debate), then I can't compensate.

-Richard Campbell.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

You did not. Look at your Duke of Cornwall with only counties in Palestine - that's my Duke of Essex with only Fes (Fes) and El Rif (El Rif).

Well thats something I'd never do.

And I think that's a horrible idea, because it would stop me from shifting around the borders of the duchies.

You have the right to think it's a horrible idea. But you are not just "shifting the borders of the duchies" but you are shifting entire duchies to totally ahistorical manner.

I am reading you carefully enough to understand what you are saying, but you are not doing the same.

Incorrect.

 

[ulmont]

Well thats something I'd never do.

Obviously. And feel free to not put the Duke of Essex in El Rif and Fes. But you also want to make sure no one else can do that either, which is what I find upsetting.

but you are shifting entire duchies to totally ahistorical manner.

Again, if I can take England to North Africa and conquer all of it, in a totally ahistorical manner, why am I still stuck with Essex being a 1 province Duchy, El Rif 2, Constantine 6, and Alger 7?

-Richard Campbell.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Gentlemen! Perhaps you should agree to disagree and move on?

As to what will be in the official version of the game, I believe we have a pretty good idea of where player preferences lie, and we shall see to what degree these can be accomodated within the available framework.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Again, if I can take England to North Africa and conquer all of it, in a totally ahistorical manner, why am I still stuck with Essex being a 1 province Duchy, El Rif 2, Constantine 6, and Alger 7?

Tell me can you hold a title of 'King of North Africa' if you don't own at least one province in North Africa demense? No you cannot! Why would duchies be any different?

 

[ulmont]

Tell me can you hold a title of 'King of North Africa' if you don't own at least one province in North Africa demense? No you cannot!

Actually, you can. I have created any number of Kingdom titles that were only held through indirect vassals, not in my desmense.

Why would duchies be any different?

Because they are being given away by the King, not claimed by J. Random Crusader?

-Richard Campbell.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Actually, you can. I have created any number of Kingdom titles that were only held through indirect vassals, not in my desmense.

Actually thats the same thing.

Because they are being given away by the King, not claimed by J. Random Crusader?

You should have a bit better explanation than this...

 

[ulmont]

Actually thats the same thing.

Can't be the same thing, or we'd have no need for the large desmense penalty.

You should have a bit better explanation than this...

You haven't given me any explanation at all for why I can't carve Constantine into West, Middle, and East Constantine...

-Richard Campbell.

 

[Third Angel]

Obviously. And feel free to not put the Duke of Essex in El Rif and Fes. But you also want to make sure no one else can do that either, which is what I find upsetting.

Since 04/01 patch, AI doesn't grant fantasy titles anymore, but human player can still do as he likes. I don't see why anyone should not be happy with that.

why am I still stuck with Essex being a 1 province Duchy, El Rif 2, Constantine 6, and Alger 7?

I think those are modable, but again this is an entirely different issue.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Gentlemen! Perhaps you should agree to disagree and move on?

As to what will be in the official version of the game, I believe we have a pretty good idea of where player preferences lie, and we shall see to what degree these can be accomodated within the available framework.

/me points to earlier post...

Er...that was a subtle hint. This one is less subtle:

Desist, or take it to PM.

My next hint - if required - will be to close the thread and ban further dicussion of the subject (which I suspect no one really wants me to do so....).

Perhaps we could return to the original topic and you folks could all provide some feedback about what you're seeing happening with the latest AI title-granting changes (introduced in the April 1 patch). Are you still seeing fantasy AI duchies? Are AI rulers granting too many (or too few or...) titles? Etc.