Tired of fantasy duchies…

[Third Angel]

Tired of fantasy duchies

I don’t know about you guys, but I feel something should really be done about AI-granted duke titles. Right now, it is 1380 and Europe is really weird : Toledo and Mecklenburg duchies are in south-western England, Benevento, Cordoba, Murcia and Belgrade in northern France, Campania, Oxford and Morocco in the Rhine valley, Spoleto in Mauretania, Flanders in southern Italy, Hainaut and Navarre in Yugoslavia… In northern Arabia, we can also notice two one-province-no-vassals-emirates : Sevilla/Almeria and Mallorca.

I know that christian AI granting titles was added in the latest beta patches, and it’s actually a good thing, but it was clearly done too hastily. There must be a way to avoid this kind of situation which makes games ending really annoying and tiring, and EU-converting historically meaningless (not every stupid duchy gets converted but Cordoba does appear in the Low Countries and Flanders’s capital is Napoli, which one will get to create Netherlands I wonder…).
Also I don’t understand why an exiled self-styled emir of Sevilla and Almeria, hiding in Arabia, should prevent any christian lord holding southern Spain to become duke of Sevilla and Almeria.

I think AI should only be allowed to make a duke out of a count inside the duchy area. If the duke and his vassals later come to lose every county in the area, the title would be either given back to the liege if he does comply with this condition, or suppressed to be created anew by whoever controls most of the concerned counties. Would that be too hard, or too long, to implement ?

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Losing the title upon inheritance if no corresponding counties or vassals are inherited would suffice. Would also work for those Bohemia-situated-in-Libya issues with crusading kingdoms too.

 

[caknuck]

Losing the title upon inheritance if no corresponding counties or vassals are inherited would suffice. Would also work for those Bohemia-situated-in-Libya issues with crusading kingdoms too.

Oy, the Bohemians in Tunisia! Any idea why this seems to happen in almost every game? (Along with, might I add, the Sheikdom of Praha.) Every friggin' game!

 

[Third Angel]

I do agree that Bohemians and Hungarians settling in North-Africa or Middle-East are pretty annoying (I had myself the hungarian capital just below the emirates of Sevilla and Mallorca for some time), but this is a different issue than the one I was trying to point out.
In CK era, titles did mean something. They were not like in the eighteenth century when everyone was duke of something even though they never left Versailles. In the middle-ages, titles went with lands, both were granted at the same time against an oath and they could not be disociated. So once you lose the land, I think you should lose the title.

Losing the title upon inheritance if no corresponding counties or vassals are inherited would suffice.

That would be ok for me.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Losing the title upon inheritance if no corresponding counties or vassals are inherited would suffice. Would also work for those Bohemia-situated-in-Libya issues with crusading kingdoms too.

And I would call "Exploit" immidiately. Let's presume I'm England in 1066. I have half a dozen duchy titles to create, which all give 100 prestige when created and have no vassals associated to them. Let's say I create them and give them to my brother in Cornwall and lo, when he dies, I suddenly can create half a dozen duchy titles again.

You could create mean prestige-pumps that way.

 

[Third Angel]

And I would call "Exploit" immidiately. Let's presume I'm England in 1066. I have half a dozen duchy titles to create, which all give 100 prestige when created and have no vassals associated to them. Let's say I create them and give them to my brother in Cornwall and lo, when he dies, I suddenly can create half a dozen duchy titles again.

You could create mean prestige-pumps that way.

This is not what I proposed, I said that titles were to go back to the liege only if he was still controlling, himself or through others vassals, at least one province in the concerned area. So he would not be able to create them anew.
Now if the liege didn't have control over the duchy area, then it could be created by anyone holding enough counties.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

And I would call "Exploit" immidiately. Let's presume I'm England in 1066. I have half a dozen duchy titles to create, which all give 100 prestige when created and have no vassals associated to them. Let's say I create them and give them to my brother in Cornwall and lo, when he dies, I suddenly can create half a dozen duchy titles again.

You could create mean prestige-pumps that way.

Not really if the concept of not giving titles to non-core province holders is implemented too (which is the most sane to do anyway).

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Not really if the concept of not giving titles to non-core province holders is implemented too (which is the most sane to do anyway).

Would you like to have human player forced to follow that concept too?

 

[unmerged(1047)]

Yes.

There's no reason a newly created and granted duke title should be able to be handed to someone who does not hold some sort of authority in the traditional area of that title. A newly created Duke of Cornwall should have to already hold part of Cornwall, either directly or through vassals.

Once the title is handed out, I have no problem with it being inherited away. But granting the title Duke of Cornwall to the Count of Norfolk is just plain silly, unless he's also the Count of Devon...

 

[Third Angel]

But granting the title Duke of Cornwall to the Count of Norfolk is just plain silly, unless he's also the Count of Devon...

I do agree with you, but yet I don't see why the Count of Norfolk would remain Duke of Cornwall once he has lost the Devon title.

Anyway, AI not granting fantasy titles in the first place should fix most of the occurences and should be treated as a priority, before inheritance matters are further discussed.

 

[unmerged(27106)]

Yes.

There's no reason a newly created and granted duke title should be able to be handed to someone who does not hold some sort of authority in the traditional area of that title. A newly created Duke of Cornwall should have to already hold part of Cornwall, either directly or through vassals.

Once the title is handed out, I have no problem with it being inherited away. But granting the title Duke of Cornwall to the Count of Norfolk is just plain silly, unless he's also the Count of Devon...

I disagree with this. While it's fine to strive for historical accuracy, you should not impose your preferences upon other players. I, like you, try to only give out Duchies in the areas they come from. But not always. For example, one game as the King of England, I gave the Duchy of Essex to my heir apparent regardless of where his lands were. Likewise, I would use other one-province duchy titles whose lands I controlled as honorific titles, like Moskva or Luxembourg, after I had achvieved a kingly title but had no interest in relinquishing the title in question.

I think that trying to get the AI to usually (but not always) give titles out close to where thye come from is fine, if a bit on the unimportant side. Trying to impose the same on human players is ridiculous.

 

[Guinnessmonkey]

I think that trying to get the AI to usually (but not always) give titles out close to where thye come from is fine, if a bit on the unimportant side. Trying to impose the same on human players is ridiculous.

Personally I feel like getting the AI to always do such a thing is rather important, but agree that humans should be unaffected...


Also agree that titles should go away upon inheritance if you don't own any of the requisite provs. Annoying when I own all of a dutchy but can't claim the title because the title holder is across the world...

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Would you like to have human player forced to follow that concept too?

Yep. Why not? Well, I do follow it even now, as a home-rule "never give a duchy to a count who has nothing at all to do with it". I won't ever grant duchy of Catalonia to count of Isle of Man...

 

[unmerged(1047)]

I do agree with you, but yet I don't see why the Count of Norfolk would remain Duke of Cornwall once he has lost the Devon title.

Because, one already in play, the title is hereditary, but the King needs something to name it after and justify it when creating it?

That's what I'm thinking anyway. The King would be limited to granting new duke titles to those who hold at least one of the counties of that duchy, either in their demesne or under an existing vassal. This would cover multi-titled Dukes.

Once created, however, the title could be transferred, inherited, etcetera - completely freely, as is already the case in the game.

The advantage of this system is the reduced amount of coding, in addition to the historical "feel".... since the only thing that is being changed is who the title may be granted to by the King.

 

[ulmont]

Historical Duchies are a pita.

I disagree with this proposal. Being forced to stick to historical duchies actually drives me nuts.

For example - Why does the Duchy of Finland have to be 5 provinces, Essex 1, Meath 2, Leinster 3, and the Duchy of Ural 8 provinces?

Say I've Reconquistaed Spain, and I can't move a duchy line even a little bit?

I've Crusaded across the Holy Land, and I can't add one little 3-province duchy inside the 5/6 province monster duchies there?

-Richard Campbell.

 

[Totmes III]

Because, one already in play, the title is hereditary, but the King needs something to name it after and justify it when creating it?

That's what I'm thinking anyway. The King would be limited to granting new duke titles to those who hold at least one of the counties of that duchy, either in their demesne or under an existing vassal. This would cover multi-titled Dukes.

Once created, however, the title could be transferred, inherited, etcetera - completely freely, as is already the case in the game.

The advantage of this system is the reduced amount of coding, in addition to the historical "feel".... since the only thing that is being changed is who the title may be granted to by the King.

I agree with this proposal. If you were to remove a title once granted, you might also demote the holder from king to duke or from duke to count, which wouldn´t make much sense either.

If the Duke of Cornwall has all of his demesne and his vassals in southern France, why would they suddenly stop accepting his heir as a duke upon inheritance because they think he holds the "wrong" title for that area? In reality, I think that in this case the Dukes of Cornwall would eventually be primarily referred to as Dukes of Something else (reducing the name of "Cornwall" to a more ceremonial status), but I do not think this possible to implement.

Basically, once you are a duke, your dynasty shouldn´t lose the ducal rank, unless revoked by the liege or lost in a war.

 

[Third Angel]

If the Duke of Cornwall has all of his demesne and his vassals in southern France, why would they suddenly stop accepting his heir as a duke upon inheritance because they think he holds the "wrong" title for that area?

That makes sense.

 

[unmerged(27106)]

Because, one already in play, the title is hereditary, but the King needs something to name it after and justify it when creating it?

That's what I'm thinking anyway. The King would be limited to granting new duke titles to those who hold at least one of the counties of that duchy, either in their demesne or under an existing vassal. This would cover multi-titled Dukes.

Once created, however, the title could be transferred, inherited, etcetera - completely freely, as is already the case in the game.

The advantage of this system is the reduced amount of coding, in addition to the historical "feel".... since the only thing that is being changed is who the title may be granted to by the King.

I still think it's both not advisable for humans and rather unimportant as an AI modification. THe reason being that there are only a limited number of Duchies. A player cannot create his own ducal titles. If a player King wanted to make a loyal count from, say, Briesgau, a Duke, but the Duchy of Schwabia was already formed, the game mechanics do not permit any way of elevating that Duke other than assigning him one of the other titles.

Is it ideal to historical buffs that one needs to call Briesgau the Duke of Luxembourg to accomplish this? Not really. But without the ability to rename Duchy tags to fit the developing realities of the game, this is the best that we got. In the particular alternate reality that is your game, it is not necessarily the case that historical Duchies will come into existance. However, since the game engine does not allow us the ability to create new ahistorical Duchies, our next best bet is to use existing duchies in a geographically and historically "wrong" way.

The proposal to curtail where a Duchy arises is, in my humble opinion, a direct attack on the mutability of history that is at the heart of the game. I recognize why many players want the AI to try to place historical duchies in the area they came from, which I think is fine, but I neither think that the AI should always do that nor do I think the players should EVER be forced to do that. As I said earlier, if you personally feel that it is important to do that, you can restrict yourself to doing so. Forcing a personal play preference onto the whole of the CK community, however, is wrong.

There is a certain reasonableness to trying to get the AI to do that, not least of which is that it might let these new Dukes actually have count vassals. I think that a better option would be to require an AI a liege to assign new counties to the new Duke rather than to spawning them to random courtiers, which I think would more efficiently achieve the historical integrety you seek early in the game and would still preserve the felxibility of Ducal assignment. However, I think that revamping diplomacy (and perhaps making marraiges more useful), fixing the military access issues, and fixing naval travel is far more important than where the AI decides to hand titles out at.

 

[Third Angel]

So here's what I think. Some posters' arguments did make some points so I agree that fantasy duke titles should not be automatically removed, nor should they be impossible to inherit.
Nevertheless I have to maintain my proposal of not granting them in the first place. I also agree that this needs only apply to AI so human players can still do as they like.
And just to show how the most stupid situations can happen with the current system: I had the Magistrate of Urbino made a Governor of Franconia by his liege, the King of Germany. And the stupid rule worked all the way: the count of Ansbach became vassal to the newly appointed republican leader.

 

[Duuk]

...which leads back to the argument I've been having since the day I got this game.

Let the Usurp Option Have Teeth

Limit the AI to handing out titles historically, but the player need not.

And then...

If someone has the ability to "usurp" a title (66% of the holdings for that title), let the title pass *immediately* to the usurper.

I keep getting shot down because the game doesn't have a good way to simulate what would happen, but it hit me:

Allow a Duke to be a vassal of a Duke *if and only if* the Duke was a vassal prior to the person being a Duke. IE:

I am King of England. MrT manages to outmanuever me as I'm being daft and his Duchy titles consist of 2/3 of England. He does a "usurp" and is "King of England". The Dukes of Cornwall and Sussex, who were my vassals before, will remain my vassals (unless they revolt, of course). There would likely be major loyalty penalties for a duke being a vassal of another duke, but we know the game can (sort of) handle it due to the Teutonic Order Kings being vassals of Poland, etc.

Now I need to war on MrT to get my title back (Usurp should, of course, give me a claim to the title). If I win, I'll force him to give me back my title. If I lose, well... I'd better start thinking of bowing and scraping.

Perhaps make it a qualifier: Dukes can have Dukes as vassals *if and only if* the Liege Duke has a claim on a King title. A Duke may not vassalize another Duke, only keep a vassal he already has.