Tips for playing West African

[DrLulz]

Hi

I played the game a lot right after release. But I thought it had a tendency to be too easy, if you didn't actively gimp yourself by role-playing (which is cool, but it's also cool to treat a game like a game, this tread is not about "powegaming vs. roleplaying"). So a week ago I picked the too expansions up and loaded up a game as a malinese count, and am now King of Mali. So far so good.

But I'm having a really hard time now. To my north the mahgreb has been swallowed by the Iberian Christian states, and if I try to expand North of Malis de jure territory they all back each other fielding more than double my power (that they have the capacity to ship, I think they have even more). This is probably because they have acces to holy orders and mercenaries, which Malinese can't have apparently (why?).

I could of course just halt expansion and try to get alliances in place / build up my Demesne - but the Decadence is killing me, my family have certain "rabbit-like" qualities, and I just can't find something useful to do for all those family-members, and I can't kill them at a fast enough rate either (plus, kinslaying is a nasty penalty, when all the landholders in Mali is of the same dynasty). So I need new land ASAP. As for potential alliance partners, because the Christians have swallowed the Mahgreb the nearest Muslim state is Egypt, and they're frankly too far away to be any help.

So what on earth do I do, and more particularly (Tl;dr):
1. How does muslim rulers keep decadence down effectively? (I know the mechanics, and am looking for game-play tips)
2. Any tips on beating a largely superior force in an aggressive war? - When I quit CK2 some months after release, battle was all numbers, this looks to have been remedied somewhat.

Oh and btw, I really like the direction this game has gone in, it seems significantly better than before the expansions.

Thank you for reading.

 

[perpetualmuse]

But I'm having a really hard time now. To my north the mahgreb has been swallowed by the Iberian Christian states, and if I try to expand North of Malis de jure territory they all back each other fielding more than double my power (that they have the capacity to ship, I think they have even more). This is probably because they have acces to holy orders and mercenaries, which Malinese can't have apparently (why?).

You need to marry for a very strong alliance and the declare war at an opportune moment. I can't recall which mercenaries and holy orders Mali can use, but I am not surprised it is very limited.

1. How does muslim rulers keep decadence down effectively? (I know the mechanics, and am looking for game-play tips)

I think the problem you seem to be having is because you're trying to address decadence by killing people or giving them land. As sad as the state of affairs is with the decadence system (hint: it needs to be reworked), the best way I find to deal with decadence is just to imprison all your dynasty members to prevent them generating decadence (remember to use your marshal for this to improve chances). You can do this without any penalty for all of them aside from your sons.

Do *NOT* land your dynasty members, except for the son that you want to inherit (give him some land if he's not your firstborn). I know that this goes against how CK2 was designed to be played, but it's the only easy way to manage Muslim decadence when you get larger. When you land your dynasty members, they get wives and have children and then you get all sorts of cascading problems. Once your character dies and he succeeds to the throne, you should have all your dynasty in prison except your brothers. Now you can imprison your brothers for free and repeat the cycle. I find it best to keep the people in prison alive just in case somehow I don't manage to produce any sons and I need a backup heir, but this almost never happens with Muslim rulers.

If you are having trouble with your sons generating decadence, then you can appoint them to a council position (and don't leave them idle), but giving land should be a last resort. If you do give them land and they marry and start to have children, remember you can imprison your grandchildren for free too, just not your sons! I know this sounds really evil, imprisoning children, but it works and means they won't grow up and start breeding too.

 

[DrLulz]

You need to marry for a very strong alliance and the declare war at an opportune moment. I can't recall which mercenaries and holy orders Mali can use, but I am not surprised it is very limited.


I think the problem you seem to be having is because you're trying to address decadence by killing people or giving them land. As sad as the state of affairs is with the decadence system (hint: it needs to be reworked), the best way I find to deal with decadence is just to imprison all your dynasty members to prevent them generating decadence (remember to use your marshal for this to improve chances). You can do this without any penalty for all of them aside from your sons.

Do *NOT* land your dynasty members, except for the son that you want to inherit (give him some land if he's not your firstborn). I know that this goes against how CK2 was designed to be played, but it's the only easy way to manage Muslim decadence when you get larger. When you land your dynasty members, they get wives and have children and then you get all sorts of cascading problems. Once your character dies and he succeeds to the throne, you should have all your dynasty in prison except your brothers. Now you can imprison your brothers for free and repeat the cycle. I find it best to keep the people in prison alive just in case somehow I don't manage to produce any sons and I need a backup heir, but this almost never happens with Muslim rulers.

If you are having trouble with your sons generating decadence, then you can appoint them to a council position (and don't leave them idle), but giving land should be a last resort. If you do give them land and they marry and start to have children, remember you can imprison your grandchildren for free too, just not your sons! I know this sounds really evil, imprisoning children, but it works and means they won't grow up and start breeding too.

Thank you for answering. Three things:
1. The selection of mercenaries / holy orders for Mali, is not very limited, it is as far as I can tell: Excactly nothing. I don't know, if there's anything I can do to get acces to mercenaries?
2. I really don't have acces to strong alliances, My "Call to Arms" are always dishonered, this is probably because of the "too far away" modifier.
3. Great tip about imprisonment, I was doing that too, but apparently not to a large enough extent, I will get around to doing some arresting.

 

[perpetualmuse]

1. The selection of mercenaries / holy orders for Mali, is not very limited, it is as far as I can tell: Excactly nothing. I don't know, if there's anything I can do to get acces to mercenaries

I'm not entirely sure how mercenary access is determined, but it's probably by where your capital is located in relation to the natural home of the mercenary group. When I have played Mahgrebs in Mauretania I had access to some mercenaries. Unfortunately I suspect that the only way to get access to more is to expand. I've never started a game in Mali, but this is making me want to give it a try

2. I really don't have acces to strong alliances, My "Call to Arms" are always dishonered, this is probably because of the "too far away" modifier.

Yes, I guess you are pretty much far away from everything in Mali so that is going to be a problem. Are you making sure to gift/bribe your allies before calling to arms to raise opinion and also making sure that they are not in any existing wars? If the answer to both of these is yes, then you are in a somewhat difficult position. It's hard to comment without actually seeing the map, but of course if you are having trouble holy warring then you should try fabricating claims or using invasions instead so that all of the Christians don't join in. If the problem is also alliances between the Christians then you can try to assassinate people to kill off the marriage alliances or if your ruler is really good diplomacy and traits you might be able to get the target's allies to like you more than him despite being an infidel (and thus preventing them accepting a call to arms).

Failing all that, just try to expand somewhere else even if it's really far away (preferably somewhere with ships). At least you will be able to eventually raise more men this way.

3. Great tip about imprisonment, I was doing that too, but apparently not to a large enough extent, I will get around to doing some arresting.

It's a shame that it's the best way to deal with decadence as CK2 is meant to be played spreading your dynasty around. They added mechanics for landing dynasty members reducing decadence, but because the AI is so awful at managing its decadence you end up with situations where your landed dynasty members breed like crazy and generate a kind of snow balling effect that eventually becomes too much to control. The key I find is basically to stop your dynasty breeding by keeping your sons unlanded and unmarried in your court and the others in prison.

 

[DrLulz]

ut of course if you are having trouble holy warring then you should try fabricating claims or using invasions instead so that all of the Christians don't join in.

So you're saying that other Christian rulers can't just join in if I use another CB than holy war? - I did not know that, this could be very very useful. Thank's a lot.

 

[perpetualmuse]

So you're saying that other Christian rulers can't just join in if I use another CB than holy war? - I did not know that, this could be very very useful. Thank's a lot.

They can still call on allies if they have any through marriages like any ruler can, but you won't get all the Catholics banding together just because you're Muslim. When you holy war, there is a fairly high percentage chance that other Cathlolic rulers that are close by are going to offer to join in defending the faith. If you use the other CB types they you only have to worry about the target's real allies (shown in their allies tab).