Tips for Natinalist China Vanilla 1936 Scenario needed

[unmerged(44117)]

Hello all. I finally got to HOI disk in the strategy six pack, and I must say this game is hard for nationalist China. I would like general strategies like

1. Where should I improve my industries and infrastructure? Where do I put AA and forts?

2. What should I research? Should I concentrate on theoretical techs that open up new techs or should I concentrate on pratical apps like combat medicine and medium mortar? I do not have much time till Japan attacks.

3. In my games I always go ahead to Crush the commies, as I just hate them and the double fronts. Is that worth the dissent.

4. After the commies should I get Xinjiang or Tibet or just wait for Japan?

5. Which ministers should I use and which generals should I deploy? Where are Chiang's Model or Central Divisions? Do the militia represent the poor warlord troops and regular inf the Model Divisions? I like to roleplay here a bit and assign a certain general to a certain division. (My non biologically related grandfather fought in one of those Model divisions, which was lead by the cousin of my grandmother. The general seems to have his name spelled funny and his rank messed up though, and the division seems based in the wrong place along with some other divisions under another general. Too bad I am not biologically related to that general (2stars), else I should not be having any problem with strategy)

6. What is wrong with my infantry? Those trained under Falkenhasen were as good as german stormtroopers. The wore coal scuttle helmets, carried automatic revolvers, and threw potato mashers. The "stormtroopers" I have are more like Starwars stormtroopers. They cannot defeat a thing.

7. What is the key to defeating japan? When will the allies come and help me? And how could the Rape of Nanking be a good thing? I always try to avoid Rape of Nanking at all costs, but the high dissent kills me, and the capital usually falls anyway. I know people said naval bombers, but even a group of 5 does not make a dent in the japanese navy and are soon slaughtered by fighters on carriers.

8. What should I use my diplomatic points for? I keep exchanging tech with minors and trying to influence majors like USA, hoping they will come and help. NOthing happens. Japan rolls over me and I become like Chiang, stuck in Chonqing, with the Japanese soon to encircle me. If the commies are still alive, they will attack me at this point. Typical of them.

Thank you all very much.

Kongxinga, a struggling newbie

 

[unmerged(27082)]

What difficulty level are you playing at? I usually play normal, so this may not apply.

Like you, I like to get rid of the Commies ASAP. I fortify the coast around Nanking and put some defences on the border with Japan. As long as you keep a fair number of units on the border, Japan does not seem to attack too quickly (before '39/'40), so you have time toi replace your militia with decent infantry.

I also try and bring all my industry up to at least level 3.

 

[unmerged(44117)]

I play default difficulty. When you say bring province to industry 3 does that refer to all provinces? I have a hard time producing more units, while allocating ICs to research, consumer goods and supplies. I usually am able to get out 1 armour unit with arty attachment and a mountain unit before they attack. Once I got 5 Naval bombers based on someone's suggestion, but no land units. I still get smashed by Japan though. Am I researching the wrong stuff? What should I be researching?

Should I build forts on the border? Why does your Japan attack so late? Does the amount of units at the border influence the Japanese public's willingness to go to war?

Oh and happy VJ day. PEace to everyone and hope it brings some luck to my game.

Edit// I tried and died again today. So I went to look in the event files. There is an AI event called Nat Chi gets techs. Does that mean a AI playing Natchi would get all these cool techs? No wonder when the computer plays Nat Chi they drive Japan away from korea and Annex Manchuguo, although they always leave the commies alone??!! I am so embarassed, as I am beaten by a few lines of code?

Ethics aside, is allowing the rape of Nanking a good thing? I can usually hold it for a while, but I soon lose a lot of my divisions holding Nanking and Shanghai. Should I just run to Chunking? The dissent reduction helps, and bringing in old Uncle Sam sooner also helps.

Note if I was a real commander and I knew Japan was going to commit such unspeakable atrocities, I would hold Nanking to the bitter end. If I was fighting there I would not surrender at all, as all young men, former soldiers or not, were indiscriminately executed and bayonetted.

The interesting thing is that historically Chiang committed his Central Army to ShangHai, and the brave defense provided a significant morale boost and bought Western Attention to the War Against Japanese Aggression, as it showed the Chinese as willing and able to withstand the Japanese. Is this depicted in the game?

 

[SwedeCarlson]

Playing Nationalist China was a real challenge for me. It wasn't easy. What I did was to build my industries as far away from Japan (Somewhere around the Tibet/UK/Sinkiang/China borders and in that general area.) Try not to go too crazy, since you will be needing to save some of your IC.

Secondly, I fortified my beaches (I did the costal fortification, since it was only 90 days, compared to land fortifications which is 180 days if I am not mistaken.) Note: Not all should be fortified, such as, if you can see the little image that looks like a little mini-sand, those are the areas you SHOULD be fortifying. The others, they cannot be invaded, at least, not to my knowledge.

Third, since Communist China is in a mountain area, I purchased at least 8 mountain divisions. The rest, I would try to get as much as infantry divisions as I can. The mixture of infantry/milita that is surrounding them could help as well in terms of re-deploying. What I did was re-deployed the milita that is not near in that area, to that area (the areas where they are surrounding the Communist China.) I try to at least keep 3-4 in each. The infantry that is IN the surrounding area, re-deploy them to the costal beaches.

Fourth, on the researching, it depends on how much IC you have left, after the first 3. Normally, I would go for the organization (I.E. Inf. 5%, etc etc) Get as much as you can. Normally in this situation, only concentrate on infantry research as possible.

When my mountain infantry is ready to be deployed, I placed all of them in the NorthWest area from the Commies (The Yinchuan region). 2 reasons why.

1. You'll notice that East and South from where the Commies are located, there is a river there, which severly restricts the movement in terms of time. Also there is a penalty (I think?) for crossing a river without a bridage infantry.

2. It's also the quickest way to get from Point A to Point B.

Finally, here's another hidden trick. If you do defeat the commies, and this is the normal way that people do, including me when I first started playing Nationalist China that I go to the diploma screen, and Annex the land. Once I do that, then I lose out alot of IC for my military buildup and research to the food for the population. That hurts, big time. After realizing the importance of the IC after playing with it for awhile, I decided not to annex Communist China, until after Japan declare war on me, then I can annex it, and still not worry about the IC changes.

Also, a little luck helps as well. I know I had my share of lucky moments and not-so-lucky moments. Hope this information helps.

 

[unmerged(44117)]

Thanks Swede for the tips. Do you mean you can only make amphibious landings on some kinds of terrain? Ill try the not annexing Communist China till Japan arrives trick. Should I get that basic Electromechanical Computing Tech for speedier research, or should I just get the important doctrines and inf applications first? Should I build any planes or armour, or motorized inf? Japan always declares war on me in 1 year from start. When i checked war readiness of Japan at december it was only 28% yet I get DOWed on February. I never knew it could rise that fast.

I spend a lot of ICs improving infrastructure in the safe region (inner china) where there are resources. Is this worth it or should i just improve IC?

 

[SwedeCarlson]

Thanks Swede for the tips. Do you mean you can only make amphibious landings on some kinds of terrain? Ill try the not annexing Communist China till Japan arrives trick. Should I get that basic Electromechanical Computing Tech for speedier research, or should I just get the important doctrines and inf applications first? Should I build any planes or armour, or motorized inf? Japan always declares war on me in 1 year from start. When i checked war readiness of Japan at december it was only 28% yet I get DOWed on February. I never knew it could rise that fast.

I spend a lot of ICs improving infrastructure in the safe region (inner china) where there are resources. Is this worth it or should i just improve IC?

Yes, you can only make amphibious landings where some terrain will allow it, such as terrain that has a beach on it. If you don't understand what I mean, when you are playing HOI, take a look at the Beaches in Normandy, France. Judo, Gold, Omaha, etc. Those are the examples of an attempted invasion. Another example, this time in China, Shantou region, has no beach, cannot be invaded. Xiamon region, has a beach, can be invaded. Beaches are represented on the main map as khaki coloured oval shapes, and are also referred to as 'banana shaped icons.' More info about that on your user's manual guide, page 31 and 32.

As for the research, this was tricky to do. Considering that you have at least a year as your time watch, you might as well get as many strength organization, as I mentioned before. Also getting improved military research could help as well.

I just try to at least improve the infrastructure on some areas, and build more factories in some areas. Just keep them far away from the Japanese as possible.

 

[SwedeCarlson]

Oh, another thing to consider. When the Sain (Can't remember what it was called) where the Commies have you either join alliance with them aganist Japan, or you refuse it. If you refuse it, your dissent goes up to 15. If you accept it, then, declare war aganist them right after you accept it, your disssent only goes up to 2, instead of 15.

Edited: Nationalist China starts with a 8% dissent. If you accept the "allied with Communist China", it will wipe out your dissent to 0. If you refuse the "allied with Communist China", then it will tack on 15 more. 8 + 15 = 23. Ouch.

After you accept the "Ally with Communist China" then go to your diplomatic screen, and declare war aganist Communist China. That way, your dissent will only go as high as 2%.

 

[unmerged(17617)]

Thanks Swede for the tips. Do you mean you can only make amphibious landings on some kinds of terrain? Ill try the not annexing Communist China till Japan arrives trick. Should I get that basic Electromechanical Computing Tech for speedier research, or should I just get the important doctrines and inf applications first? Should I build any planes or armour, or motorized inf? Japan always declares war on me in 1 year from start. When i checked war readiness of Japan at december it was only 28% yet I get DOWed on February. I never knew it could rise that fast.

I spend a lot of ICs improving infrastructure in the safe region (inner china) where there are resources. Is this worth it or should i just improve IC?

Japan doesn't need War Entry to DOW China since it has an event that changes her government to Paternal Autocrat in early 1937. They can DOW at will afterwards and they do so quite quickly (usually within a couple of days), so be ready for that.

Amphibious landings can only be performed on provinces with a beach (aka a banana in HOI-speak) so you only have to protect these provinces. Coastal fortresses are good because they lower the efficiency of the attacker which, combined with the amphibious penalty, makes these types of attack very difficult for them. You can use a mix of regular infantry and militia to protect these beaches, preferably with an engineer brigade attached because of their higher defense, and under a defensive doctrine leader (+10%). Not every beach will be heavily contested, the Japanese AI has a preference for Shanghai, Kowloon and the island in the south IIRC, so guard them with additional units. Once your coastal fortresses have been built up you can use them to train some of your junior commanders (panzer leaders, commando's,offensive doctrine etc.) by giving them a single division in these provinces. It's amazing how much experience they can gain with just a couple of attacks .

With regards to China in general, get rid of the communists ASAP, by bringing in every unit that you have. Fiendix's FAQ on this issue Leader Effects (land, sea and air) is instrumental in getting the most from your troops. F.e. if you use an Engineer to lead your troops from the provinces south and east of ComChi they will not suffer the rivercrossing penalty. Instead you have four additional provinces to attack the southern province from (+5% efficiency for each direction). Take them out 1 province at a time, to maximise your forces .

Develop your industries because you won't be running out of manpower or resources. Go for level 5 industries, but don't develop everything at once because you won't have anything left for research, supplies or units. It's probably better to build IC in level 1 provinces in the first year, level 2 in the second, etcetera. Forget about Infra because it only speeds up troop movement. Things to research are infantrytechs, doctrines, some artillery, electronics and industrial techs. Everything is a luxury you cannot afford (for now ).

Some final pointers to fight the Japanese; the AI can be easily fooled by numbers. Militia costs nothing to produce so you can fill your borders to give you time to build up an offensive force of mountaineers and regular infantry. Once the mainland is secured naval bombers are by far the most effective tool to kill the Imperial Navy. Use fighters on intercept in bordering provinces to take care of Naval Air.

Have fun, I know I did (kicking German butt in Central Asia and the Middle East in 1946 is a challenge, and a blast ).

 

[unmerged(26983)]

Don't attack Communist China untill the event that forces peace has fired, after which declair war any way and you should only have about 2% dissent.
On day 1 i upgrade all IC below 5 and do so untill everything is 5 or above, by whichtime i am a complete powerhouse. Don't do any research in the first year, only build infantry division, try and get three infantry divisions in each province with a beach, also in provinces with a beach do not upgrade IC, build Coastal provinces.
After you have at least 2 infantry divisions, put stacks of 12 along all the provinces that border Japan in the North, when you have 12 in each, but all exess on provinces with beaches, you also might want to consider disbanding most/all militia units as soon as you have enough infantry. After the Japs declear war, your 2-3 infantry divinsions plus level 2ish coastal defences will ensure that the Japanese never even take one coastal province, and to the north your large stacks should be able to knock the Japanese off the mainland.
I advise you only research after you are secure about the size of your army. Also, when Germany declares war on France, you should consider preparing to invade Vietnam, as when Vichy France is created, it will give it to Japan and you can get about 45 rubber from the provinces there.

 

[SwedeCarlson]

Have fun, I know I did (kicking German butt in Central Asia and the Middle East in 1946 is a challenge, and a blast ).

Haha, that's awesome. I'm assuming when you mean by kicking German butt, that they have overtook Russia?

I finally defeated Japan in 1943, and just about to win the war aganist the Soviets, until my time ran out.

Thankfully, the no-time-limit mod is gonna keep me playing this game for a little bit longer. :rofl:

 

[unmerged(17617)]

Haha, that's awesome. I'm assuming when you mean by kicking German butt, that they have overtook Russia?

I finally defeated Japan in 1943, and just about to win the war aganist the Soviets, until my time ran out.

Thankfully, the no-time-limit mod is gonna keep me playing this game for a little bit longer. :rofl:

I joined the Allies (without the US) in 1941 when Japan DOWED them. They finished what remained of the Japanese Navy and the Pacific VP's while I invaded the Home Islands. Their techs enabled me to quickly catch up on naval, air and armoured techs which I had completely ignored.

The Soviets refused the Bitter Peace but had annexed Persia and Afghanistan and were losing badly, so I had to scramble my troops to India and the Soviet border (I had annexed Sinkiang and Tibet at that point). The terrain is terrible in that area, especially combined with level 6 and 7 leaders like Manstein, Guderian and Rommel so I took heavy casualties (scraping the MP-barrel in fact, as China :wacko: ). DOWed the SU so I could shorten the Siberian front and unleashed my new mechanized armies in the north and finally annexed the Germans in late 1948.

Definetely one of my best HOI-games .

 

[unmerged(27082)]

Don't bother with armour or mech until after you have turbed the Japanese back. Inf and Mtn.-Inf are the best troops early on for China. Stacking loads of units on the border does seem to help dissuade a Japanese attack too early.

If you have time, try annexing Sinkiang.

 

[unmerged(44117)]

I am starting a new game. Thanks for the dissent reducing tips. Will Reply if anything interesting happens.

Just another quick question. What should i attach to my infantry divisions? I usually do Arty but it does not seem to be working too well. Would engineers fare better?

 

[SwedeCarlson]

I am starting a new game. Thanks for the dissent reducing tips. Will Reply if anything interesting happens.

Just another quick question. What should i attach to my infantry divisions? I usually do Arty but it does not seem to be working too well. Would engineers fare better?

Engineer bridgade does reduce your river crossing from -50% to -20%. I'm not sure if they do anything in defenses, but I would have to imagine that they do help, somewhat.

You also might want to check on your leaders, such as, if you're attacking, make sure that you have a Offensive Doctrine type of a leader, since the divisions he would be commanding would have a +10% efficiency for attacking. If you are defending, then select a Defensive Doctrine type of a leader, as it would increase their defense efficiency to +10%.

 

[lordsid]

Engineer bridgade does reduce your river crossing from -50% to -20%. I'm not sure if they do anything in defenses, but I would have to imagine that they do help, somewhat.

You also might want to check on your leaders, such as, if you're attacking, make sure that you have a Offensive Doctrine type of a leader, since the divisions he would be commanding would have a +10% efficiency for attacking. If you are defending, then select a Defensive Doctrine type of a leader, as it would increase their defense efficiency to +10%.

Engineer brigades do increase your defensive stats.

They're excellent all around troops but cost more & take longer to build.

 

[Pokka]

Try to put some crappy militias at the beaches in order to save your precious infantry on the northern front. Throw everything into Infantry related techs.

Terrain makes huge differences. Try your best to fortify along the southern/western side of Yellow River. If the Japanese crossed the Yellow River, defend the Yangtze River at all cost. It's a pain to lose the capital.

You can also setup some traps to finish off some Japanese units (which is nearly impossible in a normal battle). Try to leave poor/no defense on Qingdao (the pennisula @ NE) and surround that province. Once the Japanese landed, push them into the sea. Then they are gone forever.

 

[unmerged(34574)]

I had a nice game with China:

I decided to ally with Communist China and soon after communist China became part of soviet alliance. When Japan dowed us the Soviet army won quickly on main land.

Some tips for the war against Japan:
-Japanese AI is very boring when fighting: it will try to cut you in two parts, so, if you need to expand the best choice is Tibet, so Japan couldn't reach your western border too easy;
-Japan will try to take your Island in the south because of the resources.

You start with good infantry techs and docs;if you can, try to research naval bombers and some navy or sub........

......and: GOOD LUCK!

 

[unmerged(44117)]

THanks again for the tips. I have another question. THe Japanese managed to land on QingDao with 1 infantry division. I counterattacked from 2 directions with 6 divisions total and I lost? Does this usually happen? And yes, my guys had reasonable organization (3-5 for militia, 35 or so for infantry). Soon afterwards, japan landed the heavy stuff there, and the young Marshall is being encircled from the north and the troops at Qing Dao.

Sad.

What am I doing wrong?

 

[gamer42_au]

THanks again for the tips. I have another question. THe Japanese managed to land on QingDao with 1 infantry division. I counterattacked from 2 directions with 6 divisions total and I lost? Does this usually happen? And yes, my guys had reasonable organization (3-5 for militia, 35 or so for infantry). Soon afterwards, japan landed the heavy stuff there, and the young Marshall is being encircled from the north and the troops at Qing Dao.

Sad.

What am I doing wrong?

How many infantry div among your 6? The Militia won't last long at 5 org!
You need to look at your infantry tech and doctrines relative to Japanese. It may be that you are way behind and need bigger advantage. Generally it is best to man the beaches, since there is a big shore attack penalty (massive for non-marines).

 

[unmerged(17617)]

THanks again for the tips. I have another question. THe Japanese managed to land on QingDao with 1 infantry division. I counterattacked from 2 directions with 6 divisions total and I lost? Does this usually happen? And yes, my guys had reasonable organization (3-5 for militia, 35 or so for infantry). Soon afterwards, japan landed the heavy stuff there, and the young Marshall is being encircled from the north and the troops at Qing Dao.

3to 5 org, are you sure about this? with those org. levels they will basically break of at first contact. If those troops marched in from elsewhere you are better of if you had given them some rest first, even if that means that the Japanese get the chance to reinforce the beachhead. Try to contain them and bring in reïnforcements while your troops rest. As China I personally use the cav you start out with as a mobile reserve in the south, since they're fast in most kinds of terrain. If it's not that, use your mouse to check on the combatmodifiers. A combination of terrain, weather and lack of commandcapacity will have a severe impact on your efficiency .