Mughals get ToH and RU both by the 1st idea. They also have 5% more CCR which I would trade for 50% morale in a WC. Military advantages can always be made up with micro, more bonuses just means more manpower saved. Not having to fight rebel stacks also saves manpower.
Timurids>Yuan>Mughals WC viable?
- Thread starter Magnificent Genius
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Mughals get ToH and RU both by the 1st idea. They also have 5% more CCR which I would trade for 50% morale in a WC. Military advantages can always be made up with micro, more bonuses just means more manpower saved. Not having to fight rebel stacks also saves manpower.
What was in question was "The millitary aspects". Rum army is definetely better.
And the 3% heretic missionary + 3 ToHeathen feels more useful than religious unity, personally.
Still, yeah, 5% CCR is a a fair amount.
Rum has the best military set out of the three with its morale bonus, but my point is that it does not come close to making the entire idea set better than Mughals. If the date of tag switch is not counted then you can make the case for Rum ideas being better than Ottomans, but I think the idea order should still matter when comparing between sets. I just wanted to stress how overrated most military bonuses are compared to unrest reduction and CCR.
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Let's not be too hasty. I'd take 50% morale over 5% CCR. Since WC runs always drive up prestige and AT, you can pretty easily break 100% morale bonus total with that (permanently if going rev government). In contrast to disc gouging, you could realistically start stackwiping a huge percentage of your fights without any military ideas whatsoever.
While it's difficult to compute I suspect you'd speed up wars by so much that usually you'd save more time than the 2 months from 5% CCR, especially before very late game. Not to mention the effect this would have on assault --> consolidate spam to win just about all of them you want.
Add a bit more CCR and I'd agree with you though
.I find that wars become limited by siege time way before won battles. After 2kish development coring time becomes a far bigger bottleneck since most wars are fought vs. smaller nations.
You instantly stop being a horde once you take the Mandate from Ming. The mandate is a requirement to form Yuan. Yet, I formed Yuan previous patch myself and I can only recommend to switch religion as quickly as possible to do it and not to take the Mandate until you've eaten all of Ming. The mandate will give a godlike CB on Ming, but you'll be suffering through low mandate for ages. You can just avoid it by forming Yuan later/once you've eaten most of Ming. Don't count on Ming to implode after you've taken the mandate.
Also, I'm not sure why people say Yuan's ideas could be better. I mean, look:
Traditions:+25% National manpower modifier
+20% Cavalry combat ability
Dai Zai Qian Yuan−25% Core-creation cost
A Savage Kingdom Holy and Enchanted+10% Morale of armies
The Three Teachings and Nine Schools All Respected−10% Technology cost
Keshik and Weijun+10% Shock damage
A Thousand Miles as if at Home−10% Envoy travel time
+15% Movement speed
Sino-Mongol Administration+5% Administrative efficiency
Pax Mongolica+10% Goods produced modifier
Ambition:+5 Number of states
combat modifiers, but more importantly vs AI in world conquest runs, admin efficiency and coring cost reduction. +5 states will give you a lot of extra income and so will 10% goods produced modifier. manpower, 10% less tech cost. I'm not sure what else you could want. All you need apart from that is to take humanist to stop rebellions.
50% morale gets you to this point faster. The time wars are actually limited by sieges is relatively short in-game in my experience. Early on you need to fight, and late game you can run enough simultaneous wars to sit on 100% OE (or more if desired) even without anything giving siege ability. In this latter part core cost goes from "great" to "among the only relevant considerations left". However, 5% isn't worth enough to me, I'd rather have the free earlygame + convenience of melting anything armies touch (including rebels which get their own morale bar, in contrast to discipline) late.
In SP I'd still take Mughal ideas, but that has 5x the core cost reduction of your example
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You instantly stop being a horde once you take the Mandate from Ming. The mandate is a requirement to form Yuan. Yet, I formed Yuan previous patch myself and I can only recommend to switch religion as quickly as possible to do it and not to take the Mandate until you've eaten all of Ming. The mandate will give a godlike CB on Ming, but you'll be suffering through low mandate for ages. You can just avoid it by forming Yuan later/once you've eaten most of Ming. Don't count on Ming to implode after you've taken the mandate.
Also, I'm not sure why people say Yuan's ideas could be better. I mean, look:
Traditions:
+25% National manpower modifier
+20% Cavalry combat ability
Dai Zai Qian Yuan
−25% Core-creation cost
A Savage Kingdom Holy and Enchanted
+10% Morale of armies
The Three Teachings and Nine Schools All Respected
−10% Technology cost
Keshik and Weijun
+10% Shock damage
A Thousand Miles as if at Home
−10% Envoy travel time
+15% Movement speed
Sino-Mongol Administration
+5% Administrative efficiency
Pax Mongolica
+10% Goods produced modifier
Ambition:
+5 Number of states
combat modifiers, but more importantly vs AI in world conquest runs, admin efficiency and coring cost reduction. +5 states will give you a lot of extra income and so will 10% goods produced modifier. manpower, 10% less tech cost. I'm not sure what else you could want. All you need apart from that is to take humanist to stop rebellions.
How bad were the mandate penalties? Would it be possible to absorb them long term for a WC?
I am puzzled why a lot of players are so focused on Yuan having "great" ideas. Even when you assume they have the best ideas (which I dont think tyhats the case, but lets that put aside) Yuan has very many downsides. Too many to even consider Yuan a viable candidate to do a WC.
-The formation of Yuan requires taking a lot of useless land and a couple of wars with Ming. My estimate is it that the wars alone will take you at least 100 years.
-You need to change religion to actually claim the mandate which costs you another 20 years (for instance for Tengri or Confucian, you need rebels).
-Forming Yuan makes you end up with a shitty government form and a shitty religion (if you stay confucian that is.
-Stabilizing Yuan takes another 50 years fighting rebels
-It will take you a least another 100 years to complete the mandate. With all the AE you will have a hard time getting the necessary tributaries.
This list can go on and on. As I said before the devs more or less blocked Yuan as an interesting candidate for WC. Paradox needs to change the requirements first.
I gladly hear your opinion
-The formation of Yuan requires taking a lot of useless land and a couple of wars with Ming. My estimate is it that the wars alone will take you at least 100 years.
-You need to change religion to actually claim the mandate which costs you another 20 years (for instance for Tengri or Confucian, you need rebels).
-Forming Yuan makes you end up with a shitty government form and a shitty religion (if you stay confucian that is.
-Stabilizing Yuan takes another 50 years fighting rebels
-It will take you a least another 100 years to complete the mandate. With all the AE you will have a hard time getting the necessary tributaries.
This list can go on and on. As I said before the devs more or less blocked Yuan as an interesting candidate for WC. Paradox needs to change the requirements first.
I gladly hear your opinion
Pretty bad. I have proof here:
https://www.twitch.tv/spambuca87/manager/uploads
I think if I just stayed Timurids until much later, I think I would have saved myself about 80+ years. I have been stuck fighting bordering nations for ages while being on 0 mandate. I forced people to be my tributary again, but a large Jaunpur kept breaking it. Not something you want as they outtech you and you receive 50% extra shock and fire damage.
I am puzzled why a lot of players are so focused on Yuan having "great" ideas. Even when you assume they have the best ideas (which I dont think tyhats the case, but lets that put aside) Yuan has very many downsides. Too many to even consider Yuan a viable candidate to do a WC.
-The formation of Yuan requires taking a lot of useless land and a couple of wars with Ming. My estimate is it that the wars alone will take you at least 100 years.
-You need to change religion to actually claim the mandate which costs you another 20 years (for instance for Tengri or Confucian, you need rebels).
-Forming Yuan makes you end up with a shitty government form and a shitty religion (if you stay confucian that is.
-Stabilizing Yuan takes another 50 years fighting rebels
-It will take you a least another 100 years to complete the mandate. With all the AE you will have a hard time getting the necessary tributaries.
This list can go on and on. As I said before the devs more or less blocked Yuan as an interesting candidate for WC. Paradox needs to change the requirements first.
I gladly hear your opinion
- A lot of land in China is actually pretty good and you are expected to switch your states around once you formed Yuan as you need to accept at least 2 chinese cultures to not get a disaster. Eventually, the Chinese land is the best to state anyway so I don't see a reason not to do it.
- Changing religion is indeed a bother, but you can do it quicker if you do it at an early stage. You don't have to go Confucian or don't have to stay Confucian. If you'd want to, you could switch to Shinto later, but that indeed will be a huge bother.
- I didn't mind the government form myself; I had much bigger problems myself.
- It all depends on how you play. For example, in my Timurids game previous patch, I could have taken the mandate from Ming in the 2nd war with them and be emperor around 1500 or so and that was without focussing on just Ming. I spent quite some time grabbing land elsewhere first. If I played it different, I'm sure I didn't have to get stuck with religious rebels for 25 years and mandate issues for 100 years. If I just stayed Timurids while slowly eating Ming, I would have remained stable and I would also slowly turn Confucian as I'd just be eating that land and eventually pass the 50% required for rebels to enforce demands. I noticed AE was not a problem and that's mostly due to most nations being a different religion anyway.
I am sure other nations can do a world conquest more easy, but I personally find you exaggerate the problems as long as you know what you're doing.
I am puzzled why a lot of players are so focused on Yuan having "great" ideas. Even when you assume they have the best ideas (which I dont think tyhats the case, but lets that put aside) Yuan has very many downsides. Too many to even consider Yuan a viable candidate to do a WC.
-The formation of Yuan requires taking a lot of useless land and a couple of wars with Ming. My estimate is it that the wars alone will take you at least 100 years.
-You need to change religion to actually claim the mandate which costs you another 20 years (for instance for Tengri or Confucian, you need rebels).
-Forming Yuan makes you end up with a shitty government form and a shitty religion (if you stay confucian that is.
-Stabilizing Yuan takes another 50 years fighting rebels
-It will take you a least another 100 years to complete the mandate. With all the AE you will have a hard time getting the necessary tributaries.
This list can go on and on. As I said before the devs more or less blocked Yuan as an interesting candidate for WC. Paradox needs to change the requirements first.
I gladly hear your opinion
Imperialism and Admin efficiency change the entire process of expansion. With Diplo Ideas for reduced province WS cost, you can take as much land as you are willing to for OE and AE.
To be clear I admire your attempt to form Yuan or anybody for the matter going that route. I was just summing up all the disadvantages. Especially compared to the Mughals starting as Timurid. I dont know if somebody showed a WC going this route, than i have to eat my words
Lets say positively you have 4000 dev by 1650, stable and ready for WC, it will be a tall order, even with Yuan ideas, to pull it off. Biggest problem might be suppressing rebels next to the point math
The first 2-3 wars are idealy while you are still a Horde, as thats the fastest way to drop their mandate and allows taking full advantage of the extra damage their units take.
After that they are small enough to not matter anymore.
With the Timmy not being a Horde anymore things might change a bit, but i prefer Uzbek into Bukhara anyway.
The 100 years are a good guess, but thats fine. You can just take the Mandate without sorting out some borders first.
There are maybe 3 states in all of China good enough to state, the rest is TC land. The moment you form Yuan you move your Capital to like Astrakhan.
Switching religion costs barely any time as it can run parallel eveything else.
Tengri is a no-go for anyone but the most determined players because of the required Animist-intermediate.
Confucian sucks really hard. Go for Vajrayana.
Yes, it does but thats not limited to Yuan
You have the rebels way before that, right after you switch religion until you have caught up with the rest of the conversions.
There is no stabilizing to be done later. Im not quite sure why you would think that?
Completing Mandate is something that happens by chance as you progress into the lategame.
If you actually want to expand you can forget about getting all 5 reforms in a timely fashion especially now that they cost 80.
What AE are you talking about?
Everyone with AE on you is dead by the time you form Yuan. The rest doenst care.
And the modifier for size for Diplo-Tributize doenst seems to be properly capped.
Once you are big enough you can even tribute nations in the HRE.
Quite the opposite, because Tributaries get reduced AE, you can eat Europe even faster then usual.
They are perfectly viable because of their retarded Blob-fiesta ideas. The "best", by the way, is the movespeed + Envoy traveltime. Its fucked up how you notice that its missing once you go play a different country.
They are very interesting because of their different playstyle required
What they are not, atleast for me, was fun. I agree that the whole EoC mechanic turned out to be a clusterfuck, meant for sitting on you hands and letting the years tick while you dont do much of anything.
And needing it to for Yuan does indeed but a big warning sign on them.
Just going with the Mughals can achieve the same things, with less work, less stress and probably faster aswell.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rsalis-4-empire.707840/page-642#post-23387005
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-harmonize.1049979/#post-23395991
It's really not that difficult if you start as Timmy. Timmy's big enough that you can immediately start going to town.
I am impressed you pulled it off with a one faith on top. And you couldnt use the island-mandate exploit anymore. I have a simple answer, you are a master in the game, this is not for average ppl. Also you are honest in your analyses, its not a nice tag to play. Hat off sir
Edit: Did you do it without exploits? You are the first Yuan I see. Excuse for the question.
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Only 3? This is what I had to give away to get "Rags and Riches" which meant I had to give away all provinces above 11 development.
I'd say most of the east coast is worth of stating including the area around Xian.